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Working the National 1300A

Natman

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A big housing project, closely packed small duplexes, going to be 30 or more of them. The contractor has it in his head that framing the roofs on the ground and then lifting them will be quicker and easier than lifting them piecemeal. From my perspective, and hour meter, it didn't save any time over what it would have taken me to set them 1 or 2 at a time, but what do I know? I supplied the rigging, but let them guesstimate where to rig it. I picked it up and then asked "you sure, you like it?" My way of absolving myself from blame if it fell apart, though of course a good lawyer would have a different attitude. I made sure ( I had to tell them several times, DON'T GET UNDER IT) that if it did pull apart no one got hurt. Even then, one guy, while it was still 3 or 4' above the plate line, gets up on a step ladder and rests his arms on the top plate, no frigging common sense. I didn't really feel it was going to collapse of course, but why take the chance and get under it? It went well so now I'll be getting the call to do them all I suppose.

When I made a trip there previous just to eyeball it, I made a big deal about the distance from my center of rotation with the head guy and he nodded knowingly, then when I showed up they had framed the garage walls (green) forcing me to set up further back. No big deal as it didn't weigh 7,000 pounds like he estimated, but 2900, but I told him next time (I think they are all identical) get me in and out before the garage goes up. I just noticed, the same dumb a** who had his arms on the plate, was the same guy who popprd up at the last second with the snow shovel, just as I grabbed this pic, he got yelled at twice.
 

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hosspuller

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I wonder if the compound cuts to make the second roof line are easier to measure & make while on the ground. I imagine there's some adjustments to be made since the trusses and lumber all add their tolerances to the required angles
 

Natman

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Speaking as a recovering carpenter, I'd say the opposite. I don't want my joints opening up due to the pick stresses.

But it gets better: I just got a text from the super saying his big honcho wants to do the next duplex in 1 pick, and did I have another crane, one that could handle about 7K at a 50 something radius? Told him no, out of my chart, but even if I could I wouldn't, too much of a hassle to rig right, as in 5 times more hassle then lifting two. Not a capacity issue alone, more a rigging one in other words. Also, his next step up in my area cranewise would cost him more in travel time alone than my entire bill for doing two at once. And, the site is so tight, a bigger rig would have a harder time and may end up out of his chart if too far. I don't care if they call me back, but I'd like to see whoever pick the entire roof, watch them rig it, see what crane it was, and then run the $ numbers. Not saying it couldn't be done at all, just saying it'd cost way more, and to no advantage.
 

hosspuller

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So, with your billing a wash ground assembly vs piecemeal, there's some sort of advantage to building it on the ground and lifting the roof.

An interesting question... With an interesting answer. Maybe the super doesn't like heights when checking the job :eek:

Could the reason be weather related ? Or perhaps more hands to finish the assembly quicker vs limited space working atop the walls and among trusses? Maybe a clumsy non-agile workforce in danger of falling at height. You already know some of the crew is unaware of hazards.

Much like building housing in a modular factory. All the workers that I saw at height had fall protection on. The height was a dozen feet at most. The roof was built folded flat, to be unfolded on site.
 

Welder Dave

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It is likely much easier to build components on the ground but being made of wood and complex shapes introduces a whole new set of variables when you have to lift them. They built an 820 tonne vessel longer than a football here in the shop and moved it because it was so much easier. A big part of why it could be moved is because it's made of welded steel. Modular homes are built stronger because they are designed to be hauled in sections from the shop to the building site. A standard roof assembled on the ground may not hold up to being hoisted.
 

Natman

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99.9% of the several hundred houses I lifted the trusses for last year were built in place, not on the ground. These guys are tripping over a dollar to save a dime. I didn't get a hint of something going on that would make me think they were operating on a level so far above what I could fathom, that they were so advanced in residential construction! More, a crew below average in all aspects, starting with their site prep in getting me in there, you'd thought I was going to show up driving my frigging Prius, for all the room they left me! Not one knew to NOT crank the shackle bolt down tight, to not try and stuff 5 slings into my load hook, getting under the load, etc. etc. So, the crew is nothing special, what's surprising to me is the boss man's action. This site is an easy 10 min drive for me, they'll be looking at a 1 hr one way travel time for a big enough crane to do it in one piece. I charged them my min 2.5 hr fee, port to port, and we got it done in less than that. It will be interesting to see how it plays out for sure. Luckily I don't need to stress about it/don't need the work, so can just sit back and watch it play out.
 

crane operator

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They may be playing a workmans comp game. Typically the underwriters want a percentage estimate of time spent working at height vs working on the ground. The rates on the comp are scaled by that percentage.

It’s not a big deal for small companies, but if they are one of the huge developers, it would make a $ difference for building 3,000 homes.

I’ve done the pre building on the ground more with steel than wood. It’s easier for the lifting with steel, because of its strength. Most of my job sites there’s just no room to pre build anything.
 

hosspuller

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! Not one knew to NOT crank the shackle bolt down tight,
I didn't know that .. But, then I'm just a HE hobbyist.

Is it to allow the shackle or pin to flex when under lifting load?


Crane Op's post is the sort of answer that may explain why contractor wants to build on ground level. Natman's billing is a wash so something else is driving the decision.
 
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DMiller

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The back porch of our house got set as a Unit, Columns were up and interior walls to connect to, set that then the remainder of the roof truss. Built it in the Living room floor.
IMG_0415.JPG
 

Welder Dave

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I didn't know that .. But, then I'm just a HE hobbyist.

Is it to allow the shackle or pin to flex when under lifting load?


Crane Op's post is the sort of answer that may explain why contractor wants to build on ground level. Natman's billing is a wash so something else is driving the decision.
Some people say not to back off the shackle bolt a tiny bit but then you can't loosen it without a wrench. It could be a pain if unhooking off the ground in awkward or potentially dangerous positions. If it's a more permanent thing then tighten it up.
 

skyking1

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building something with that much windage is just looking for trouble, IMO. A mouse fart is going to wreak havok with it, let alone a decent gust at the wrong time. It is backwards thinking.
You could do 20 of them with no issues but that 21st one taking the crane down and hurting some people would wipe all that out in the blink of an eye.
You don't want to go out of your way to make something into a critical pick.
On our house build I am building those little cupolas on the ground, but I will leave the sheeting off to make them super simple to rig up.
 

DMiller

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Nuke Safety Idiot pushed the tightening of the Shackle pins on our fuel lifts, Just KNEW the strap eyes would unscrew it those six to eight full threads. Showed her SEVERAL Times Hoisting Rules and recommendations where she INSISTED or we would be written up. SO, as Lift controlling Operator Informed her she HAD TO STAY while made a Fuel Cask lift and swapped to remove assemblies, she initially refused but Supervisor noted SHE ould be required to as I demanded it. She awaited the lifts satisfied she was correct UNTIL Time to Remove Shackles and straps. Mechanics had to be called as the pins as Wedged in too tight to remove. Damaged Shackles was inferred by Mechanics where had to be replaced, she would not budge on tightening down even as mechanics informed her otherwise, Second Shackle SET ended up SAME Conditions, Management called her into Office. She not ever returned while fuel handling was being performed. She quit following year.
 

crane operator

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Nuke Safety Idiot pushed the tightening of the Shackle pins on our fuel lifts, Just KNEW the strap eyes would unscrew it those six to eight full threads. Showed her SEVERAL Times Hoisting Rules and recommendations where she INSISTED or we would be written up. SO, as Lift controlling Operator Informed her she HAD TO STAY while made a Fuel Cask lift and swapped to remove assemblies, she initially refused but Supervisor noted SHE ould be required to as I demanded it. She awaited the lifts satisfied she was correct UNTIL Time to Remove Shackles and straps. Mechanics had to be called as the pins as Wedged in too tight to remove. Damaged Shackles was inferred by Mechanics where had to be replaced, she would not budge on tightening down even as mechanics informed her otherwise, Second Shackle SET ended up SAME Conditions, Management called her into Office. She not ever returned while fuel handling was being performed. She quit following year.
If she wanted positive securement, they could have just gone to bolt type shackles, with the nut and a cotter pin. Its hard when the person making the "rules" really doesn't know what they are doing.

The bolt and nut shackles are a pain if you are attaching and unhooking all the time, but in the liability frame of a nuke plant, they would be a great alternative.

crosby bolt pin shackle.jpg
 

DMiller

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At the time were offloading fuel, then reloading empty casks.
So were swinging two to three off and then loading as off loading. Working inside cramped quarters of fuel building with truck bay door open until truck allowed to leave. 5ton hoist hook, Shackle, four matched length 10’ straps off first shackle to four corner shackles.
Two men on truck, two to four 46’ above on fuel handling floor, myself and two supervisors plus three rad protection techs. Send one cask to side of truck loading area, before backed in, snatch first cask off truck to upper deck send second empty down aside pick another from front three pyramid, next one down to empty slot on trailer pick loaded one send next empty where that one lifted pick a rear top off front three empties. Another off rear up last empty available from above down to trailer pick last full send hook down lift last two to trailer truck out door. Rad Prot techs got really antsy with door open, unprotected release path for zoomies. Shackles stuck techs panic, safety idiot panic, supervisors in bad mood. Me, I would shut off crane and just watch, nice break. Cask on hook up or down unable to do squat as could not remove lift rigging. Awaiting Mechanics even more supervision distress, RP techs Impatient RP supervisor into clown show, lots of strong language!!!

Time of essence to get trucks in and out. Limited numbers of Cask, multiple sites getting fuel deliveries and timing important to fuel supplier, our site, other sites, bad day!
 
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DMiller

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Almost forgot. Operations on 12 hr schedule, RP on 8, security watching over Everything limited as to officers anyway pissy as to men tied up, and then truckers!!
 

DMiller

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Sorry on the bolt shackle CO, nuke requirement cotter pin changed any time removed as well any loose small parts in Fuel Building TABOO!!
 
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