Purchasing first TLB and need advice

if anyone is curious, this is what I have learned so far.

JCB gives a 1 year warranty. during this period, the client pays for all travel and accommodations. after the year ends, the client pays for travel and parts and labor. JCB only sends mechanics/techs from the mainland.

CAT gives a 2 year warranty. they have teams in the Azores. they have not specified the details of travel costs yet.

CASE gives a 1 year warranty. they have teams in the Azores. they have not specified the details of travel costs yet.

KOMATSU gives a 3 year warranty and 2 year add on for 2000 euros. they are in the Azores, but have not specified the details of travel costs yet.

I haven't been able to track down VOLVO yet, do they still make backhoe loaders?

I still don't think a new machine makes any sense, with no more hours than you are going to use it. Especially if you have to borrow money to buy it.

After a year or two, you won't have any warranty, and will be on your own for fixing it, even if you buy new.

So look at it this way, a used machine at $30,000 vs a new machine at $100,000

New machine is $70,000 more money, if you borrow the extra amount (70,000) for 8 years at 8%, the payments are $990 a month.

So $12,000 a year just in the extra payments for the new machine vs. a used machine.

There are very few people using a backhoe at your usage rate, that are spending $12,000 a year upkeeping it. I would bet most would be closer to spending $2- 3,000 per year in repair expenses, if that.

Save up the first year extra payment amount ($12,000) and I bet you wouldn't need it for repairs for the first 5 years that you own the older used machine.

The only people buying new, are contractors for a multiple equipment fleet, gov't and municipal (power, water, sewer) users. Or people that are independently wealthy (and you said you were borrowing the money).

I was surprised that the fees to get it shipped to you, weren't more expensive.

If you do decide to get new, just for your own piece of mind, I can understand your reasoning, and I do hope it all works out for you. I've really enjoyed reading about where you live, its a little outside the box, of where most of us live.

I agree with all that.
Unfortunately, it hinges on finding a good used machine that is properly evaluated on the mainland. That will be a process that needs careful consideration.
If you choose to go that route, start posting up candidates and we can help weed out the obvious bad ones. When the list gets distilled down, pay an independent equipment inspector to go over it, then cut the check and get it coming.

A used machine from a dealer may be a good idea as they could go through everything.

crane operator said:

I still don't think a new machine makes any sense, with no more hours than you are going to use it. Especially if you have to borrow money to buy it.

After a year or two, you won't have any warranty, and will be on your own for fixing it, even if you buy new.

So look at it this way, a used machine at $30,000 vs a new machine at $100,000

New machine is $70,000 more money, if you borrow the extra amount (70,000) for 8 years at 8%, the payments are $990 a month.

So $12,000 a year just in the extra payments for the new machine vs. a used machine.

There are very few people using a backhoe at your usage rate, that are spending $12,000 a year upkeeping it. I would bet most would be closer to spending $2- 3,000 per year in repair expenses, if that.

Save up the first year extra payment amount ($12,000) and I bet you wouldn't need it for repairs for the first 5 years that you own the older used machine.

The only people buying new, are contractors for a multiple equipment fleet, gov't and municipal (power, water, sewer) users. Or people that are independently wealthy (and you said you were borrowing the money).

I was surprised that the fees to get it shipped to you, weren't more expensive.

If you do decide to get new, just for your own piece of mind, I can understand your reasoning, and I do hope it all works out for you. I've really enjoyed reading about where you live, its a little outside the box, of where most of us live.

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I'd be surprised if a new machine can be bought for $100,000. I looked at MSRP on my Case. It is now 10 years old, sold new for about $125,000. That is 2014 dollars. I presume many more dollars today.

crane operator said:

I still don't think a new machine makes any sense, with no more hours than you are going to use it. Especially if you have to borrow money to buy it.

After a year or two, you won't have any warranty, and will be on your own for fixing it, even if you buy new.

So look at it this way, a used machine at $30,000 vs a new machine at $100,000

New machine is $70,000 more money, if you borrow the extra amount (70,000) for 8 years at 8%, the payments are $990 a month.

So $12,000 a year just in the extra payments for the new machine vs. a used machine.

There are very few people using a backhoe at your usage rate, that are spending $12,000 a year upkeeping it. I would bet most would be closer to spending $2- 3,000 per year in repair expenses, if that.

Save up the first year extra payment amount ($12,000) and I bet you wouldn't need it for repairs for the first 5 years that you own the older used machine.

The only people buying new, are contractors for a multiple equipment fleet, gov't and municipal (power, water, sewer) users. Or people that are independently wealthy (and you said you were borrowing the money).

I was surprised that the fees to get it shipped to you, weren't more expensive.

If you do decide to get new, just for your own piece of mind, I can understand your reasoning, and I do hope it all works out for you. I've really enjoyed reading about where you live, its a little outside the box, of where most of us live.

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what I have read is that machines begin showing problems around 6000 hours, assuming no stupid mistakes by previous operators. all the used machines with fewer hours than 6000 are going for 70,000+
the new machines from CASE and KOMATSU have manufacturer/extended warranties lasting 4 and 5 years after purchase date. about 100,000 euros.
I am most likely limited to Spain and Portugal for options, potentially France....but I expect the transport fees will double with each country the machine passes through.
in my situation, it is a personal loan from a family member without interest...I got very lucky.
I hope to pass this machine on to my 3 sons (2, 10, 12 years old) , along with my chainsaws and other landscaping/farming equipment, so they can carry on the farm and have an optional income in their future.
anyhow, a lot of angles to consider. I really appreciate your input and time in helping think this through.
I am not opposed to an older used machine, but none are old enough to exclude the electronics that y'all have warned me against.
the KOMATSU website has a SpecCheck feature that allows me to get a sense of the minor differences between machines.

skyking1 said:

I agree with all that.
Unfortunately, it hinges on finding a good used machine that is properly evaluated on the mainland. That will be a process that needs careful consideration.
If you choose to go that route, start posting up candidates and we can help weed out the obvious bad ones. When the list gets distilled down, pay an independent equipment inspector to go over it, then cut the check and get it coming.

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I found CAT and CASE offer certified used with a 6 month warranty, I am considering this option.

Can't go wrong with either of those.

That's a much better idea!

magnus spencer said:

I found CAT and CASE offer certified used with a 6 month warranty, I am considering this option.

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Just make sure the machines are old enough, if it's not older than ~2005 it's going to have all the same electrical problems as a new one and then you're back to square one.

I have never owned a Caterpillar machine, I have very little time running Cat. I'm partial to Case, but there are flaws in each model, take some getting used to. 580K swings WAY too fast, has a weird swing proportioning valve supposed to slow the swing each way as it reaches the limit of travel. Early models with extend a hoe had a bolt on bottom of the dipper stick, keeps loosening up. Case once offered a weld on piece no longer available.

All models were standard with 3 lever hoe, foot swing. Extend a hoe had a fourth lever. I'd avoid that.

You want four wheel drive, torque converter, I'd want extend a hoe. Clam bucket is sweet! A cab is essential if you don't have indoor storage.

MG84 said:

Just make sure the machines are old enough, if it's not older than ~2005 it's going to have all the same electrical problems as a new one and then you're back to square one.

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I have not found any that old. everything is about 5 years old. that's a big reason why I'm not sure if the 25% savings is worth the wear and tear.

magnus spencer said:

I have not found any that old. everything is about 5 years old. that's a big reason why I'm not sure if the 25% savings is worth the wear and tear.

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Yes, it is worth the savings because when you buy a brand new piece of equipment, there are always some teething issues. You do not want to be paying a technician all that travel time to come out and fix routine little things that happen with a brand new machine. Usually by the time it has a few hundred hours under the belt, it's fairly reliable.
Keep in mind you buy a new machine and you're going to want to do all of the factory service with the technician to keep that warranty. They're not going to come out for free.
On the other hand, we can talk you through all the service on your used machine and it just doesn't matter.

magnus spencer said:

I have not found any that old. everything is about 5 years old. that's a big reason why I'm not sure if the 25% savings is worth the wear and tear.

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No, it is not. A warranty has value. If you are saving 25% off new, you should go new. If you save 50% from new, you have incentive to endure some inconvenience.

Over the 20+ years of buying new heavy equipment I've had very few issues from the start. The vast majority of that equipment was Cat however there were some Bobcats and a Gradall along the way.

It's the reason I like to buy new, take care of it and keep it as long as it makes business sense. We have a few nostalgic pieces of iron that I want to keep but might need to go.

I would think good used would still be more than a 25% discount over new. I'd guess 35-40%. Then it's worth considering.

Welder Dave said:

I would think good used would still be more than a 25% discount over new. I'd guess 35-40%. Then it's worth considering.

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Mine was 8 years old when I bought it, just under 2000 hours. I paid less than 44% of 2014 new price. I shopped around a long time. Some very competent mechanic had written in silver sharpie on each component when fluids or maintenance was performed. Front differential had been replaced near new, I think warranty work.

Mine was heavily optioned. I don't believe the hoe had ever been used. Cutting edge of the front bucket was heavily worn both edges, I think most of the 2000 hours were loader work.

It had numerous alarm codes. Low fuel alarm came on each time it tipped. Fuel tank sending unit was bad. The water alarm sensor was bad. Had a problem with first gear not working. Hauling it to a dealer failed to resolve it. They said they used it like a four wheeler two weeks, couldn't get it to fail. I brought it home used it 1-1/2 years before it acted up again. Proved to be a bad magnet coil on a shifter.

I think most markets would have good used machines at 40% off new. Just make sure any machine you're considering is fully inspected and don't just jump on the 1st machine you see. That doesn't mean the 1st machine wouldn't be a good machine. Sometimes people are impatient and buy the 1st machine they look at without fully inspecting it or seeing what else is available.

Hi Magnus.

My opinion, I tend to side with @crane operator regarding rather purchasing a good used machine, rather than a new machine with a limited warranty.

Out of personal experience, the new electronic controlled machines are stronger and more nimble, but they do tend to give more electronic problems around 6000Hrs. Depending on the fault, this would normally de-rate the machine, and you won't get the performance you may need from the machine. An older machine will still give some electrical problems, but they are easier to figure out and repair with minimal experience needed, and usually fixed by components that you can find locally from an Automotive Spares Shop, or bypassed completely. These machines would most likely outlive your children too if properly taken care of. (I have a customer that has an Old CAT 428 built in 1992 which has more than 42000Hrs on and still going strong after I repaired the transmission last year)

Ultimately, the decision you make when purchasing a machine still remains with you, but I would however mention that should you purchase a new or used machine, purchase one that would offer you the best aftermarket services and parts availability.

This being said, deciding between Cat, Case or Komatsu, most of the machines today are pretty reliable if the machine is looked after and maintained properly. I don't think there is a "Best Brand" out there, its all about the maintenance of the machine, and to maintain a machine, you need reliable aftermarket services from the OEM.

Having a 3 - 5 year warranty may look like an attractive deal, but having the machine stand for months at end because there is no parts or technicians available, doesn't seem like a lucrative option.

I hope this helps you make the decision easier.

Hi,

I live in the canary islands as an expat, on the island with the recent volcano, and I've been looking for a backhoe or excavator for 6+ years. I've traveled to other islands half a dozen times to look at machines and did a tour around the mainland of spain looking at many machines. My search area has included france, Benelux, and the UK.

We have some things in common that pertain to your search: remote location and limited technical knowledge of locals. I studied engineering, and I love being a shade tree mechanic. I do jobs here on the island as a mechanic (machinery, automotive, motorcycles, home appliances, etc) because local mechanics regularly screw up things as simple as oil changes (e.g. stripping threads in aluminum oil pans and then using epoxy to seal the drain plug and sending the client on their way. Changing a drain plug washer is unheard of here.)

Please allow me to share with you some of what I've learned (I'm not from here, because a typical person from here would never spend 30 minutes of their time to help another human being without there being something in it for them. As it pertains, I do miss living in the USA and the UK - on average FAR kinder people, far less selfishness.)

Nonetheless, here's what I've learned from reading hundreds if not thousands of hours (to the point of reading service manuals for machines I don't own!!!). I think I've watched half of the youtube videos that exist on repairing backhoes and and excavators. I've talked with small and large machinery owners in different countries, and have looked at machines myself. But I have never owned a machine, just operated a few and did some simple repairs to a few.

1. If you buy a backhoe you will need to increase your mechanical willingness to turn wrenches. As it pertains, what people have said here on this forum about buying used is, from one perspective, sound advice because of the lack of local competency where you are. Used (usually pre-2003) means simple. New is not always better because you will never have the tools or the time to diagnose 100s of sensors, kilometres of wire, and handfuls of computers on the newer machines. Buying new means a high-level of dependence on the dealer (and high €€€€€s long term). If it is new, after the first couple of years you will need an income stream to continue using the machine.

2. Keep in mind that there are different mentalities of how to use and care for a machine. This is important when buying a used machine. For example, in the canary islands, maintenance is nearly unknown. People don't attend to issues when things are wearing out. They wait for things to break. In other countries people upkeep their machines. The father of a friend of mine didn't think motorcycles needed oil in their engines. I've only ever known 1 machine owner to change the oil in the final drives. Whereas in the northwest continental Europe and in the UK there is more maintenance done. More contentiousness. It is even better in France. When considering buying a used machine there is a big difference between a machine that has some normal wear yet has been maintained and buying a machine where everything is just about to fail. I believe it was Carrero that stated in print at one point that their axles and gearboxes were designed for 12000 hours. They can last longer, but maintenance is important. Wait until it breaks is a social mentality in the canary islands, and mainland spain is only nominally better. Of course there are exceptions. I saw an amazing 18-ton Komatsu wheeled excavator in the mainland of spain with 12000 hours that looked and operated nearly like new. But keep in mind not the exceptions but rather the rules.

3. Brands: with your remote location you want to be focused on parts availability and dealer willingness (and cost) to ship them to you. In terms of brands you want to buy a machine, whether new or used, that has a local dealer. Note: Most of the forum members here are US-based and Komatsu is not as common in the US but John Deere is. The european Komatsu machines (with the exception of the early Fiat ones) I've seen have been very nice (smooth operation of the hydraulics, the engines seemed far quieter and smoother than all other brands). Also stay far away from Caterpillar "D" series backhoes in Europe I believe they were made in the UK. The US-made ones were fine but the european ones (428D, 432D, 438D) have horrible welding. I've never seen anything as bad. The absolute best used machine you could buy is probably a european Case 580SLE or 590SLE, made in France. Simple, extremely robust, great welding, will withstand continued demolition hammer use, and parts are still available. I've heard good things from people with the 580SM also but the 580SM came with the IVECO and not the cummings. Cat C-series are and also the earlier E-series seem good (though the E-series has computers). Older Cat machines come with perkins designed engines with replaceable liners, an advantage, as engine rebuilds are easy and can be done "in-frame). The cummings doesn't have removable liners but they seem to never die. I'd prefer to have a machine with a cummings (lasts forever) or yanmar (smooth and quiet). Some people like and some people don't like the JCBs but they seem to keep working; I rarely see dead JCBs here.

4. Governmental compliance. People are selling used machines in europe because they can no longer do public work with machines that do not meet certain emissions. The EU is just another manipulated governmental entity. And having read eu law here for ages I see the way they do things. First was tiered emissions compliance for new sales, then more and more public works were obligated to contract with requirements for emissions compliance. The next step is all contractors will need to use compliant machinery. The second to last step will be to outlaw the ability to use roads with machines that don't meet certain emissions compliance (either via manufacturers' statements or via inspections). The last step will be to make them illegal (akin to 2-stroke engines in waterways in the USA).

So, buying new means dependence on dealers and €€€€s but you will be able to use the machine to make some of the money you soend. Buying used may mean a more reliable long-term machine (if you can find a good one) but that it may be limited to just your property.

I wish you the best,
Dave