Spec creep and the disappearance of the 10-12 ton class excavators

I have 6 ton Taki and a Wacker ET 90. The 90 is technically a 21K machine. Vast difference in capabilities between these two machines in capability. I think the 100-120 size have been crushed by 9 ton machines that can fill that market due to superior performance, yet still be a Midi. Cat 310, Yanmar makes a 100, Taki a 2150 which is a bit bigger. There are a few in that mystery weight class. It would be interesting to see how many of those are sold verse the 130-140 market and the 9 ton market. I really think that the 9 ton machines are so capable that the 120 sized machines are kind of an oddity. Cat's 310 is a Chinese built machine, if they sold a lot of them, I would doubt they would be built in China.

The 20K Wacker really excels in moving material, Prior to buying that, I made the Taki work, took longer, I didn't realize how much longer till I bought the 90. I think that split at 6 ton near zero swing and tail and a 20K machine is near perfect. Covers most everything you hope to short of jobs that the 140 and larger are better suited for.

KSSS said:

I have 6 ton Taki and a Wacker ET 90. The 90 is technically a 21K machine. Vast difference in capabilities between these two machines in capability. I think the 100-120 size have been crushed by 9 ton machines that can fill that market due to superior performance, yet still be a Midi. Cat 310, Yanmar makes a 100, Taki a 2150 which is a bit bigger. There are a few in that mystery weight class. It would be interesting to see how many of those are sold verse the 130-140 market and the 9 ton market. I really think that the 9 ton machines are so capable that the 120 sized machines are kind of an oddity. Cat's 310 is a Chinese built machine, if they sold a lot of them, I would doubt they would be built in China.

The 20K Wacker really excels in moving material, Prior to buying that, I made the Taki work, took longer, I didn't realize how much longer till I bought the 90. I think that split at 6 ton near zero swing and tail and a 20K machine is near perfect. Covers most everything you hope to short of jobs that the 140 and larger are better suited for.

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Thanks for the insight. There aren't many true 9-ton class machines out there but it seems the numbers are increasing. Mostly I see 8-tons like the Kubota KX080, Tak TB290, Cat 308 (309 just has more hyd flow) most are in the 18-19K lb range. I like the specs on the 310 Cat but refuse to buy one because they are made in China. Yanmar SV100 looks nice too but dealer support is pretty sparse in our area, same for Wacker Neuson. The new Case CX90E might be promising, haven't seen one out in the wild yet though.

I didn't mention the Case 90E. It is an excellent performing machine. Very fast, 6 way blade if you want it. I spend about 4 hours on one. I certainly would consider that machine.

It comes down to mobility these days 308 or 85 size guys throw on a one ton all the time

The dump truck market is so beat down for rates as an owner operator it doesn't pencil to own one and one you can afford is probably to old to finance but you can finance any new pickup you want and justify it because its your personal that you get to write off

But as for machines around here back in the day house lots were 8000 sq ft plus in track now there 5000 or less the houses are built 5 ft apart its tough to use a backhoe anymore in residential unless one is a true operator witch for backhoes there aren't many

So the lack of talent drives the 5 and 6 to mini market hard and ease of mobility between sights so to go bigger you might as well be 25000 lbs and up you will meed a real truck so have a real machine

AzIron said:

It comes down to mobility these days 308 or 85 size guys throw on a one ton all the time

The dump truck market is so beat down for rates as an owner operator it doesn't pencil to own one and one you can afford is probably to old to finance but you can finance any new pickup you want and justify it because its your personal that you get to write off

But as for machines around here back in the day house lots were 8000 sq ft plus in track now there 5000 or less the houses are built 5 ft apart its tough to use a backhoe anymore in residential unless one is a true operator witch for backhoes there aren't many

So the lack of talent drives the 5 and 6 to mini market hard and ease of mobility between sights so to go bigger you might as well be 25000 lbs and up you will meed a real truck so have a real machine

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DOT is cracking down on guys pulling 6-8ton units around here behind 1-tons (finally). Just last month there were 6 guys in the county caught towing things they shouldn't without a CDL.

As for the dump trucks, I too used to think the rates were so low there was no money in it, but it turns out the market is flooded with guys not doing the type of hauling I need, which is why I bought my tandem. 90% of the dump trucks on the road are what I would call 'highway trucks'. They all want to haul asphalt or aggregate to the big highway jobs, or sand to the concrete plants, or whatever else they are doing. Almost no one will tailgate gravel anymore and heaven-forbid you ask them to even go a little bit off road. I primarily haul for my own jobs, but bill it at a much higher rate than everyone else. I get the materials where they need to be, on time, and without making a mess of customers property and they are willing to pay for it.

The part you mentioned about financing is very true too though, and I think is driving a lot of markets right now. A lot of guys don't have $25-50K cash to go out and buy a serviceable tandem dump truck, but they won't bat an eye at financing an $80-100K pickup. Plus they can roll in the financing the 22" rockstar wheels, full graphics wrap, lights all over, custom flatbed stacked to the brim with Yeti coolers and Milwaukee Packout boxes etc. Don't get me started on the younger generations and their "work trucks" lol...

We have been through the impact of the new generation owner operator these guys are 100 percent financed on everything pickup trailer mini ex and skid steer there charging way to cheap so yea there making better money than they ever did but they own the risk and have never seen a slow down they won't weather the storm

We have not been able to raise rates in our service work for almost 2 years because of those guys so I started working markets they can't touch and work they can't get into and we do ok

But we have come out of the biggest name your price market that we may ever see in our life and these guys jumped in at the peak 5 years from now most won't be around

Most of today's business owners have never seen hard times all the old timers that survived 08 are getting out and retiring or selling out and investing in other things

So to get to the original topic of excavator size most of the little guys witch are the drivers of the small excavator market the current buissness theory has not been tested by a low volume work market and the need for a versatile machine cause in that environment you can only afford the one

I started my first business in '00 and my current business in '07 so I remember '08 very well. About the worst time to start a new business. My first year I made $17K gross, thank goodness we had some savings to live on.

I know we've all been saying it for awhile, but I think we are right at the precipice of another '08, or maybe much worse. At the moment I'm merely window shopping for a larger machine, I really want to see how everything with the economy shakes out over the next year or two. Depending on the depth of the next downturn it might be a good time to pick up some good equipment for cheap. Then again, it may be bad enough I'll just be grateful for what I've got.

The reason the 10 ton market is almost nonexistent is even most small utility crews want a swing boom for reasons I cannot understand. I don't know if it's a hold over from the backhoe days or something else. Just poking around Machinery Trader, swing booms outnumber fixed booms 3 to 1 in listings.

hvy 1ton said:

The reason the 10 ton market is almost nonexistent is even most small utility crews want a swing boom for reasons I cannot understand. I don't know if it's a hold over from the backhoe days or something else. Just poking around Machinery Trader, swing booms outnumber fixed booms 3 to 1 in listings.

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I've found that to be odd as well. On a 6-ton or smaller machine I really like the swing boom, 8-10 ton I'd much prefer a mono boom.

Just had a quick look at the engine specifications of a new 13 ton Hitachi which is rated at 106hp. The last of the UH series 20ton machine had 92hp, both metric.
So trying to compare apples with apples, assuming the UH series was in excellent condition which machine would outwork the other?
My $$$s is on the UH series, and yes I have dug house footings with that size machine.

Pretty pleased with our ‘vintage’ 1994 EX 100-1.

Has moved a large amount of coarse tailings while burning a small amount of fuel. It’s a bit ‘leaky’ (need to find bad hose in belly) and a bit slow…but handles a 1 yard bucket with good stability. Typical smooth Hitachi hydraulics. Pretty small tail overhang allows tight quarters work. The 3.9l Isuzu has unknown hours—-probably a lot as hydro pumps have rebuilt tag. But starts immediately & runs smooth. I will say however; a lot louder than the 4.3l Isuzu in our old ZX 120.

Engine: Isuzu 4BD1, 76 hp. Non-turbo…

BC Placer gold said:

Pretty pleased with our ‘vintage’ 1994 EX 100-1.

Has moved a large amount of coarse tailings while burning a small amount of fuel. It’s a bit ‘leaky’ (need to find bad hose in belly) and a bit slow…but handles a 1 yard bucket with good stability. Typical smooth Hitachi hydraulics. Pretty small tail overhang allows tight quarters work. The 3.9l Isuzu has unknown hours—-probably a lot as hydro pumps have rebuilt tag. But starts immediately & runs smooth. I will say however; a lot louder than the 4.3l Isuzu in our old ZX 120.

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Its old got 3 years on me!

Tyler d4c said:

Its old got 3 years on me!

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Now I feel old.

BC Placer gold said:

Pretty pleased with our ‘vintage’ 1994 EX 100-1.

Has moved a large amount of coarse tailings while burning a small amount of fuel. It’s a bit ‘leaky’ (need to find bad hose in belly) and a bit slow…but handles a 1 yard bucket with good stability. Typical smooth Hitachi hydraulics. Pretty small tail overhang allows tight quarters work. The 3.9l Isuzu has unknown hours—-probably a lot as hydro pumps have rebuilt tag. But starts immediately & runs smooth. I will say however; a lot louder than the 4.3l Isuzu in our old ZX 120.

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That's a very tidy machine, well done for keeping it like that.

MG84 said:

The part you mentioned about financing is very true too though, and I think is driving a lot of markets right now. A lot of guys don't have $25-50K cash to go out and buy a serviceable tandem dump truck, but they won't bat an eye at financing an $80-100K pickup. Plus they can roll in the financing the 22" rockstar wheels, full graphics wrap, lights all over, custom flatbed stacked to the brim with Yeti coolers and Milwaukee Packout boxes etc. Don't get me started on the younger generations and their "work trucks" lol...

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Thanks for the laugh! Couldn't agree more.

Always get a chuckle out of the 3500 with wheels sticking out 6-8" wider than the truck pulling a new 299 CTL with the hitch dragging the ground and the truck's nose in the air hauling ass down the interstate while they have the phone to their ear even though the 2025 MY truck has all sorts of hands free tech.

Back on thread topic -

For what we do a 10-12 ton machine is a b*****d size. Too small to handle pre-cast storm structures efficiently and big enough we have to put it on a lowboy. It would cost the same to move a 310 as it does our 325 so the size doesn't make sense for us.

We run 305's for mini's and 325's for main hoes. Actually we could go up to a 335 sized main hoe because there has been times the 325 was a little too small.

CM1995 said:

For what we do a 10-12 ton machine is a b*****d size. Too small to handle pre-cast storm structures efficiently and big enough we have to put it on a lowboy. It would cost the same to move a 310 as it does our 325 so the size doesn't make sense for us.

We run 305's for mini's and 325's for main hoes. Actually we could go up to a 335 sized main hoe because there has been times the 325 was a little too small.

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Transportation is a very regional thing. What a man can haul in Iowa where roads are arrow straight and flat as a skillet is completely different than here in the mountains with 20%+ grades and sharp switchbacks. Most of AL I've been in is somewhere in between.

Around here a 120 is about the biggest hoe you'll see behind a tandem/tri axle dump truck, lots of 8-9 tons. Even a 160 most guys are hauling with a semi and either a short rgn or a tandem/tridem pintle hitch trailer behind a semi tractor depending on how tight of roads they have to get down. Finding a safe spot to unload and turn around can also be a challenge. There are some sites that are just inaccessible to a 210 size hoe and 336 and up are relegated to work in town or sites with main highway access.

All that being said, I understand and agree with your logic. We just have to scale everything down a bit, hence my interest in the 10-12t class. A 5-6t hauls nicely behind a medium duty truck, 8-9t is better behind a tandem and at that point you might as well haul a 10-12t.

BC Placer gold said:

Pretty pleased with our ‘vintage’ 1994 EX 100-1.

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That would be an ideal size for me, a 1yd bucket is about right for a 'larger' machine for my needs. Very few EX100's around here though and most machines I find that age are completely beat.

I don't know how it works in the US but here we have over dimension curfews at various times of day and the year. 10 and 12 ton diggers are not over dimension making them very popular especially for owner operators. In the big smoke it's 7-9am and 4-6pm every day, totally prohibited prior public holidays and for all of the Xmas break.

CM1995 said:

For what we do a 10-12 ton machine is a b*****d size. Too small to handle pre-cast storm structures efficiently

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Most of your work is brownsite though. When I say small pipe crew, I mean the guys with a couple 8 tons and 1 yard wheel loader. That's the standard small waterline/stormwater upgrade mob here. A 325 needs a full 12' lane between the curb and the cones to swing safely

MG84 said:

Very few EX100's around here

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There doesn't seem to be very many around anywhere in the US. I know where one with blown up motor is and I keep lowballing the guy and the trees around it keep getting bigger. It's probably one those projects I'm better off not picking up, but it would be a great starting point for some of my bad ideas.