580k hoe lift w/o power

[Hossman72]

Hey Guys,

Easy question I could probably answer myself with a little digging but I am trying to be efficient (read: lazy).

I have a 580k (circa 1989) and I need to move the dipper cylinder without running the engine, so I can screw the gland back into it. With a come-along, I should be able to move it - BUT - how about the hydraulics? If I have a helper move the controls will it relieve the pressure? Do I need to crack the cylinder fittings?

 

[Tinkerer]

Kinds hard to answer.
what position is the dipper ?
Horizontal, flat or ?
It is always easiest to remove the hoses from the cylinder.

 

[Hossman72]

Hey Tinkerer, it's sitting upright with the transport lock on, I need to pull the dipper arm outwards to move the piston downwards and screw that gland back in. I was thinking I would crack the fittings to relieve pressure but was hoping not to have an oily mess on my hands. That's probably the best way and probably what I'll try and do. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Tinkerer]

Doesn't the engine run ?

If the dipper control lever is in the center (hold) position you can run the engine and use the other control valve functions.
If the spool seals are leaking you may get some oil loss through that open cylinder.

Dipper cylinders are always easier to work on with the boom laid out flat.

 

[Hossman72]

Yes the machine is running. The gland is screwed in 1/2 way at the moment, that's as far as I could screw it back in, so I assume that either the piston or any oil on top of the piston is preventing me from screwing it 100% tight. I did try to get the boom laid out flat but as soon as I attempted to move the dipper, she spouted oil all over. I was thinking it would be better to try to extend it without the engine running and try to back-feed the oil through the valve. I have some ideas and I will get it figured out just hoping for an minimal oil spillage as possible.

 

[Tinkerer]

The rod eye should not be pinned to the dipper. From what you describe it must be.
I would not mess with the dipper control valve at all.
There is no need to use it if the lines are disconnected from the cylinder.
You could raise the bucket off the ground slightly with the boom and hook a chain somewhere on the bucket, then use a truck or another machine to pull the dipper out until it is vertical.

Unless you have a control valve spool leaking the only oil you need to lose or save is what is in the lines and cylinder. I could catch 90% of the oil in a bucket if I had it in my shop.
The gland should not be in contact with the piston. The rod should be pushed in. Preferably all the way in.
If it is out very far the weight of it will make turning the gland extremely hard and greatly increasing the chance of cross threading them.
The gland should never be started on the barrel threads until the rod is at least half way in the barrel IMHO!

 

[alrman]

I would think the piston is hard up against the gland.
Gravity is your enemy here.
Maybe if you can get a small jack in between the dipper & boom, to retract the dipper rod a little, while holding the control lever in the correct position.

Big question is, how did you get into this predicament to begin with??

 

[Hossman72]

Hey Guys,

Long story short, this backhoe is at my hunt camp so it can only be fixed using 'bush methodology' or in other words, in a 'Mickey Mouse' 'DIY' sort of way. I was moving large rocks with it end of last season and driving with the rocks in the backhoe bucket (great for doing unexpected wheelies). This might have put too much stress on that dipper cylinder gland as it popped out shortly afterwards. Won't do that again. Anyways, I do work for a fluid power company, ironically where we fix cylinders, valves, pumps, etc... one of the techs suggested I screw it back together and add set screws as a temporary fix. For a 35 year old machine that rarely is used, temporary is more than good enough.

Ideally, I'd love to get it flat horizontal to work on, but I have no problem working on a ladder. As mentioned I did get it screwed about 1/2 way in no issues and no signs of cross-threading. I just need to lift the dipper boom a little to retract the cylinder a little. Come-alongs and bottle jacks will work, for sure. ALRMAN - that is exactly what I was thinking I need to do. If I can't backfeed the oil I will have to disconnect the lines I guess. I will try to move the valve to the 'retract' position (away from the operator) while I jack/pull the boom. Might work, might not.

Thanks guys, this is a help.

 

[stinky64]

If the gland just "popped" out of the tube, you've got bigger issues. The tube threads are probably hogged out and useless. Good luck.

 

[Hossman72]

If the gland just "popped" out of the tube, you've got bigger issues. The tube threads are probably hogged out and useless. Good luck.

Yep 100%. But given the age of the thing, there is always something to fix. Going to at least try to screw it back together and keep my fingers crossed. Otherwise, I will be pulling the cylinder and bringing it to the shop for a rebuild.

 

[alrman]

If the cylinder spat the gland, it will definitely do it again, likely the first time you use it.
That's IF you can get the gland all the way back in.
IF you can get the gland in, best way to "patch" it with any longevity, is to weld the gland in place with a few inch long stitches. Use low hydrogen rods.
Allow some cooling time in between each weld.
Use damp towelling around the rod to protect it & absorb some heat.
I've done this before, in situations where we couldn't wait for proper repairs or customer couldn't afford the proper repair.
It will last as long as the seals hold out.

Taking a welder on site to do this is your only option. A good generator will operate an invertor stick welder easy.

 

[HarleyHappy]

So, you’re saying the gland literally popped through the threads and off the cylinder and you’re trying to thread it back on and add some set screws. There should be one screw already between the edge of the gland and the cylinder. Yes you can relieve the over center pressure by bungee cording the boom lever forward, if it’s in the lock position.
Good luck! Work safe, though at this point, might be impossible. lol

 

[Tinkerer]

If you choose to not weld the gland to the barrel you may lose as much as $100.00 or more for replacement oil when it blows apart again. And it will.

The repair for it is gonna need a new gland, seal kit and barrel.
A good repair shop will put your old barrel in a lathe and cut the eye end of it off and weld it on the new barrel.
A used cylinder may be your best (cheapest) option.

 

[Hossman72]

Hey Guys, yes thanks for the replies and advice. I'll be up to camp this weekend to take a closer look. Bringing a portable welder with me, I agree that welding is a good option if I can quench the heat before it destroys the seals. I mean, this cylinder is basically trash so I have nothing to lose by giving it a try.

I work for a shop that does cylinder fabrication and rebuilds (not my department though...) so I have an out if all goes badly. Cheers guys, I will post some really ugly weld pictures next week. 'how not to weld'