backhoe extendahoe

[Randy88]

Been looking at backhoes a long time now, never owned one, asked a lot of questions in the past and still asking questions.

First off, don't have a lot of work for one, so not wanting to spend a fortune on one, just have an occasional job and the bulk of the time it will just sit around, looking to get one for the convenience of not having to truck an excavator for small jobs, like drain tile repair, whatever I get probably won't even get 100 hours a year use at most.

Used a lot of case machines over the years, mainly customers who I work for just lend me their machines for small repair jobs to save both time for me and money for the customer. Ran a 580 super M this spring for about 30 hours or so, otherwise its been mostly K models over the years, about a dozen of them or so. Ran a few john deere's over the years as well.

The question for today is this, some with extendable sticks like the case, have the end section that extends over the base tube, and cat, deere, jcb and a few others have have it extend out from within the tube. The first thought that comes to mind is this, does the older cat, deere, and jcb design build up dirt and cause more wear on the stick?? I was actually looking at a cat 416e model maybe, or D model, can't recall now, but it was an early 2000's machine before cat switched to the similar stick extension design as case. How do you adjust the wear bars on both designs to keep the extension tight, is one design easier than the other. Also when they sit out in the rain and especially in freezing rain with the stick up, does the design like case has or the newer cat's, does water run into them and freeze the extendable stick or is there a weep hole somewhere on them. This first came to mind yesterday while using one of my excavators in the cold rain and got me to thinking about it.

I could ask the salesmen but I'd rather not be bothered with dozens of calls trying to sell me 80k used backhoes I can't justify or intend to ever buy.

 

[Coytee]

I don't have an extending hoe....but your comment above "don't have a lot of work for one" in my opinion, couldn't be more incorrect.

I bought a JCB about 20 years ago (1550B) as we were building the house. I figured buy, build then sell.

I'm still using it every or every other weekend.

One of the handiest things I have around here. Wife wants her flowers transplanted.... get a shovel? Nope!

Wife wants Hernandez (the fish) buried....I was going to "fling" him into the woods. GASP says she!!! BURY HIM! Get a shovel? nope.

Hoist loaded rear tire off tractor to take to shop.... break my back or hoist with hoe? Easy choice
Build (boulder) retaining wall, break back or backhoe?
Scrape (dirt) sidewalk prior to laying flagstone down, shovel or....backhoe?
Assist tree felling..... rope or hydraulic power?
Move mulch from lower parking area to top of retaining wall.... push around in wheel barrow or hoist with backhoe? (actually I use the loader bucket to get a lot more up there)

I once needed a strong vice to hold a hydraulic pump while I put a cheater bar on it to loosen a bolt.... don't have a vice big enough. Sandwich pump between stabilizer and ground so now the hoe is my assitant....worked like a charm.

This is just 4 minutes of typing.....this thing is very handy and I'm always finding ways that it can assist me, not to mention moving a tree that might block our road so I can get out.

 

[CM1995]

Randy I have a 420DIT bought new in '03 with extendahoe. First of all I wouldn't buy a backhoe without one especially one that will be used for multiple things.

We've never had any issues with our extendahoe except for repacking the inner cylinder but that's expected for it's age. Our 420DIT has shims to keep the stick tight.

As far as rain and ice go - no comment as we don't get that type of weather.

Mine sits around 98% of it's life, you know I really need to sell it but it's the first piece of yellow iron I bought and it has sentimental value.

 

[Randy88]

I own multiple excavators, cranes and skid steers not to mention track loaders and farm tractors and loaders. All this item would be bought for is to save loading, unloading and hauling an excavator from small job to small job. A backhoe I could drive down the road at a relative descent speed to get from one job to another, then dig for 15 minutes to locate the plugged or crushed tile and then let it sit for days to weeks while it drains and dries out enough to do the actual fix and then back fill that hole, then onto the next job. Then late in the fall season, when the weather is freezing hard and we're still up and running instead of digging frozen mud out of the tracks of an excavator, we could run a backhoe for a few weeks and have one less machine to deal with frozen tracks on, that's about the only hours we'd put on it, the rest of the years, literally it wouldn't be 20 hours of actual use run time, but spend months sitting waiting for things to dry out one hole at a time.

CM does your backhoe stick that is covered in grease that slides inside the tube drag dirt and mud into the slide mechanism and cause any grief that way as your digging? Not sure that question is asked quite right, but to me, the slide mechanism looks like it would ball up with dirt and mud and be constantly in need of cleaning off or pressure washing off and regreasing the slide mechanism, but I could be all wrong, since I've never ran that style of extendahoe before.

As for sentimental reasons to keep a machine, I'd say that pretty much describes about every piece of iron I own, its not until a particular piece causes me enough expense and grief does it move off that list and onto the "its now time to update it list"

 

[CM1995]

CM does your backhoe stick that is covered in grease that slides inside the tube drag dirt and mud into the slide mechanism and cause any grief that way as your digging? Not sure that question is asked quite right, but to me, the slide mechanism looks like it would ball up with dirt and mud and be constantly in need of cleaning off or pressure washing off and regreasing the slide mechanism, but I could be all wrong, since I've never ran that style of extendahoe before.

As for sentimental reasons to keep a machine, I'd say that pretty much describes about every piece of iron I own, its not until a particular piece causes me enough expense and grief does it move off that list and onto the "its now time to update it list"

Randy we've never had an issue with dirt/debris sticking or tracking back into the "tube" of the extendahoe. The set up is pretty simple in that respect. It may not be the best set up but we haven't had an issue with it.

 

[Legdoc]

Randy, I have a 2004 580M turbo 4x4 with extendahoe OROPS. I believe it is the last machine before electronics. It has about 800 hrs with no issues other than maintenance. I would not be without the 4x4 or extendahoe.
I can vouch for the usefulness of the machine at my ranch only possibly being rivaled by my Kubota CTL.

 

[AzIron]

Cat b c and d series had a tube that slid out the dipper we have never ever ran grease on the e sticks dirt sticks to grease and increases wear

Shim pads on the older cats are about a 2 hour job by yourself moving slow if you dont do the ones at the top of the tube wear is relative to what your doing if you put a 3 foot bucket on heaped full and the e stick run all the way out it's going to wear the pads down faster than having it sucked in people treat an e tick like it's a full on extra boom it's not its handy for reach but machines lack power with them all the way out so slide it out for the reach you need and suck it back in and keep on trucking

Deeres design is really stout from there g series on they are a little bit of a pain to shim up especially by yourself but if you can wrench you will be fine starting on cats f series they made them shimable from the outside witch is really fast and handy

Have no idea about freezing as I dont ever see that weather but the pads are poly so I would think it would be minimal

What you need to consider is if you should get a 580 or 310. Or a 590 or 410 size the larger machines have about 2 feet and change more reach and quite a bit more pick power and weight if your not in tight areas or if your digging on sewer mains coming out of basements the bigger machine has a lot of value

 

[Randy88]

I've run older 410 deeres as well as a few older 310's and know the size difference, we've hashed this whole issue over dozens of times with the crew [who all agree they don't want a backhoe period] but since I'm paying for it and its always been on the bucket list to own one, now its down to how nice, new and what options I want.

The downside of the larger backhoes is not as many used parts to source from, since far less of those machines were sold new in the first place, and also where they were sold isn't really in my area, so farther to hunt used parts, the whole 580 vs 590 discussion the numbers really stand out, just compare used machines for sale anywhere, and there must be about 50-100 580's for sale compared to 1 or 2 590's of the same model.

Then there is the whole deal I'm buying it for in the first place, to literally stand months on end in the mud and slop waiting for the ground to dry, the smaller machine that's lighter weight would be easier to pull out. But the larger machines with larger tires both in the back and front would in theory make life much easier and it does help you get out of places better that the smaller sized machine can't, or at least that's what I saw when running all the machines I have run thus far.

I know JCB makes a larger backhoe, same for New Holland with the same size tires on both the front and rear, never been around one never run one before, but it did interest me for the fact of crossing tile trenches in the mud, and doing tile repair again not only in the mud, but bottomless swamps at that point, about any smaller front tire pretty much sinks out of sight and is the main reason we've had to go fishing with log chains to retrieve the backhoes time and time again, and the main reason why my crew simply hates the whole idea of a backhoe, they all love the tracks under the excavators and in all the years of tiling, we've never had to rescue an excavator or go fishing with chains to get one of them back on solid ground again, granted, there have been many times a steam cleaner should have used to wash the mud off the whole machine so you could actually see it again, but we got ourselves out without aid.

Toss in dealer support and also tech and parts support, that rules out JCB, New Holland, Ford, Volvo, Terex, and a whole lot of the rest in my area and its not really cost effective to pay several grand just to get a tech onsite, before he even does anything to the machine, that's just the trip charge and to have to wait a week or more for them even show up, if they would at all.

 

[Willie B]

I've had a Case, a John Deere, now another Case with E hoe. I like the female lower dipper better cause I like a thumb. It's a good deal easier to put a thumb on with Case style.

Compensating for wear is kind of a big nasty job with anything not new. I see in the manual the newest Case have external adjustment. I've never tightened one up.

There is a hole at base of dupper to drain, but it tends to get plugged with grease.

 

[AzIron]

Deere hands and feet owns the 410 size machine market in north America and there are enough of them out there that I wouldn't be worried about parts availability as a big issue I also would not buy a 430 cat they never balanced good and are really slow cycle time

I think you will use a backhoe way more than you think you will if you give a good shot at learning all the tricks of running one so it might be worth a fair bit of thought to not buy to old a machine but it all depends on your budget and if your crew doesnt like them it might be an uphill battle to use it

I am not a case guy at all just am not a fan but if there are a slug of them around you and the price is right I think they stand up to about any abuse you can throw at them and your not making a bad move getting case

Biggest thing it sounds like is you made your mind up what you want you seem to have all the knowledge one could posses about backhoes without owning one so I dont think your impasse is options or this style or that its justifying the price you want for the machine you will get and whether it will do what you want it to do or not

Just an observation

 

[Randy88]

Aziron, your probably right on many aspects. I just run whatever the owner has available, I've never really taken the time to study the machines much, [after all there's nothing I can do about anyone else's machine anyhow] that and I'm on or around them so little time I really don't notice all the differences between them [not to mention some are in really bad shape or need of repair and service its not funny]. Couple that with the fact even the owners don't know a lot about their own machines, again due to the fact they bought them just to dig a few holes here and there and they sit mostly forgotten about till the next time they are needed.

I could ask the owners, but I guarantee 99 percent couldn't answer one question about them due to no real knowledge or experience in the first place, which brings the stupid questions I have to those that actually run them for a living, and sit on them day in and day out for decades and know them inside and out.

So thanks again for all the help and answers.............so the last few days its been raining here..........again, so I've had some time to pick up the phone and make a few calls to those I know locally, and the topic of mud came up [guess I'm not alone in dealing with it and its challenges] and it was advised by several to look at the all wheel steer backhoes with larger front tires, anyone know anything about them, I've never seen one in person, let alone run one before. I was told by several service techs and mechanics to get one of those for what I'm wanting to do, they claimed they'll go through far more than any other four wheel drive backhoe would??

So after some internet searching, it appears in the United States, its New Holland or JCB who's been making them the longest. I've asked locally and it appears there is only one anywhere near me left anymore, the others were traded out of the area and nobody seems to know or remember anything about them due to being sold to cities and all those that ran them have either died or retired and are no longer around to ask. Now there are only three dealers in my state for JCB and about the same for New Holland, and those dealers are mostly ag related, not much for backhoes.

It seems case is now selling a new T model, but since the dealers have never seen or sold one, they knew nothing about them. I was also told Terex made one, not sure if that is true or not, have no clue who the dealer for Terex even is let alone where they'd be. Bobcat is now making a larger all wheel steer backhoe, their old articulated 2400 is far too small for anything I could use.

Anyone know anything about the all wheel steer backhoes, good, bad, might be something to think about or run away from as fast as you can type deal?? Anyone know anything about JCB backhoe's? I've never seen one, been around one or anything until yesterday, a dealer has a used one for sale and I went to look at it and dig one hole with it in the rain and mud, so that's my extent of knowledge on them besides their yellow in color and made over seas [which pretty much includes almost everything else it seems too or most of the components anyhow].

 

[AzIron]

All wheel steers are awesome we had one in the 90s from cat that was test machine cat wont sell an all wheel steer in north america to my knowledge deere doesnt make one never heard that case does

Jcb is the only one in north america I know of that's all wheel steer and and has large front tires I have ran 2 jcb backhoes and hated it and the controls were electric overhydralic witch I am not a big fan of not to mention there is little to no foot print of jcb here and no parts and very limited support

If it's so muddy that you need taller front tires to get thru you probably aren't going to have much luck anyway if flotation was what I was worried about I would put metric radials on the front of regular backhoe I have a machine set up with them and it gets twice the bite any other machine does dont have enough mud experience to tell you much else

But if you need that stay away from deere and cases ep line of backhoes they have smaller front tires than the standard models obviously your going to buy a 4 wheel drive machine

Back to mud if it's that muddy that a tractor will get stuck a backhoe will to so in that scenario your stuck with tracks

I know a guy that does drain tile in Iowa he has a 410 deere along with a couple excavators but if they can get in the field most days his backhoes a daily runner not sure if the environments the same as yours or not

 

[Willie B]

Older Case hoes were jumpy, worse with extend a hoe & or thumb. You can get used to them.

Be very careful buying Case, If it is me, I'll avoid three lever/foot swing. I bought one, ended up converting it to SAE joystick control. My newest, 2014 is pilot controls, that is sweet. I can out dig a similar weight excavator.
I've had several nightmares with John Deere parts availability, especially true of Greisen Hydraulics.
I've seen a few JCB with same size tires front & rear. They seem pretty amazing, stable enough to do some hoe functions without bucket or stabilizers down.

 

[Willie B]

Older Case hoes were jumpy, worse with extend a hoe & or thumb. You can get used to them.

Be very careful buying Case, If it is me, I'll avoid three lever/foot swing. I bought one, ended up converting it to SAE joystick control. My newest, 2014 is pilot controls, that is sweet. I can out dig a similar weight excavator.
I've had several nightmares with John Deere parts availability, especially true of Greisen Hydraulics.
I've seen a few JCB with same size tires front & rear. They seem pretty amazing, stable enough to do some hoe functions without bucket or stabilizers down.

I've never driven a modern New Holland. The owner of a New Holland ran my Case an hour, commented he did Not like the hood, can't see past it. Something I had never thought about, visibility.

 

[Randy88]

I'd never consider a two wheel drive backhoe, I've had to use several over the years, to say they are helpless is a mild understatement, more like hopeless for what we're doing is more correct.

What makes the all wheel steer machines awesome if I can ask? Smoother ride, better turning radius, more traction, what? When I asked I was told all there is to an all wheel steer machine is the manufacturer took the axles from a telehandler and put them under the backhoe was the jest of it. When I asked the mechanic who was trying to talk me into one, he said I'd love one, same steering modes as my crane or my smaller rubber tired trencher with a backhoe on the front of it we use to install water and electric lines with. So I asked him why are there not far more around and all he said was, its something different that most would never even try one and those that did were strictly on concrete where theres not enough gain to justify the extra cost of one new.

Any idea why cat won't make an all wheel steer for North America to sell to their customers?

OK besides the electric over hydraulic controls, what else was undesirable on the JCB, just parts and support issues?

 

[AzIron]

Cat said back when that the market for all wheel steer is not big enough in north america so they wont sell it here

All wheel starts are awesome cause once you learn how to run them they give you some great maneuvering in tight areas as well as when your doing loader work or grading with the loader you can crab or turn in about half the radius that said almost nobody here has any experience with an all wheel steer so the demand will likely never be there

Jcb didn't have it for me just in what I was used to the balance was off to me and they were not as smooth as I thought they should be nor to me was the production speed there for digging but mainly I didn't have enough hours to get used to it so I might be biased cause that is the world leader in backhoe sales

The support around us is dismal and they sell them things 15 percent cheaper than the competition last I checked locally

 

[Randy88]

OK thanks for the honest reply, its what I was wanting to know, from someone with personal experience operating the machines.

JCB around here has does have the market share in telehandlers sold to farmers for some reason, never asked exactly why, but that's about it from what I can tell and listening to what my customers tell me. Those smaller one's that only lift about 20-30 feet high or so, seems everyone has one from loading bulk seed to feed out of bunker silos. Never really paid any attention to them other than having to run one every once in a while.

 

[Willie B]

I'd never consider a two wheel drive backhoe, I've had to use several over the years, to say they are helpless is a mild understatement, more like hopeless for what we're doing is more correct.

What makes the all wheel steer machines awesome if I can ask? Smoother ride, better turning radius, more traction, what? When I asked I was told all there is to an all wheel steer machine is the manufacturer took the axles from a telehandler and put them under the backhoe was the jest of it. When I asked the mechanic who was trying to talk me into one, he said I'd love one, same steering modes as my crane or my smaller rubber tired trencher with a backhoe on the front of it we use to install water and electric lines with. So I asked him why are there not far more around and all he said was, its something different that most would never even try one and those that did were strictly on concrete where theres not enough gain to justify the extra cost of one new.

Any idea why cat won't make an all wheel steer for North America to sell to their customers?

OK besides the electric over hydraulic controls, what else was undesirable on the JCB, just parts and support issues?

While I've never used a JCB with electric over hydraulic controls, I'm absolutely in love with pilot controls on a Case. The ability to slow down to be very precise, or full out when digging out in the open is wonderful! And I can switch between SAE & ISO pattern instantly.

 

[Randy88]

I've been told by several to never buy any backhoe with electric over hydraulic controls, not sure if its true or not, but was also told about every manufacturer out there makes two versions of pilot controls, one is cheaper, the electric over hydraulic and the better option is fully hydraulic just like excavator controls.

The 580m we ran this spring had pilot controls on it, took a few minutes to get used to them, but once I did, yes they are nice, absolutely identical to all my excavators which did help to get some of my crew to even consider running it, as for the pattern changer, not a big deal, nobody, not even me will run any machine very long that is backhoe controls, so basically it would never be switched anyhow once its set for excavator controls. Same would go for any two lever machine, once set up for excavator controls, it would stay like that as long as I owned it.

Which brings up another topic, doesn't the pattern changer basically divert the flow after the valve between two functions or how do they actually work?

 

[AzIron]

Yea pattern changes just changes pilot flow to spool valves

Eh controls get a bad wrap on backhoe cause mainly deere got there ass handed to them with the Tc machines they were not reliable solenoids would always go out

Every manufacturer for the last 10 years or more have made pilots as standard and I dont believe eh controls are cheaper than pilots but it hardly matters in 5 years most machines will be eh in general but the reliability has gotten way better and a little more cost effective to work on