Butler Brothers logging trucks

[Truckmodeler]

Butler Brothers Logging of Sooke/Victoria B.C. built some unique trucks in the 60's and 70's. Claude and Wally Butler wanted to maximize load capacity and went with a cab-under-load design. The evolution of the design began in 1960 and culminated with the Mark 5 in 1974. I've been researching these trucks and its been both interesting and puzzling at times since little remains of either the trucks or their history. What I have gathered together are a few photos, some fading memories and some attempts to decipher where and when and how many of these rigs actually existed. My original intent was to gather information for building a model of the Mark 5. That model has yet to happen but in the process of finding details and plans of that truck I found that precious little was preserved of the others. Now it has become a bit of a personal quest to put the history of the Butler Brothers logging trucks down in some form of permanent record, a cradle to grave story of each of them. So, I will relay what I have learned to date and share some of the photos I have discovered. I am still researching and will be trying to get some first hand memories from those who worked around them but for now most of what I present is an outline of the history. If you have further information please add it. If you find errors in my accounts, please correct them. I am not a trucker or an equipment operator so some of my information or references to parts etc. will not be entirely accurate.
OK, here's the starting point: 1960. Claude Butler wanted something radically different from the logging trucks of the day. He and good friend Basil (Barney) Oldfield designed and built the first of four unique trucks. As best i can tell from photos, this truck (the first of 3 #70 trucks) used Mack axles and rear ends, and ran on dual 1200 tires on all wheels. It had a rigid log bunk frame with an articulated tandem axle power bogie under each end. This was effectively an articulated 8x8. The cab sat beside the engine, both of which hung out over the front power bogie. The engine was a Jimmy - not sure what size - and it drove a shaft back to a central gearbox midships under the rigid log bunk frame. This then distributed power to the front and rear power bogies. This was a small truck compared to the Mark 5 but was the beginning. Roll-out appears to have been in 1960-61 but little has come to light about this truck and what happened to it. My best guess at this point was that it ran until the #36 and second #70 came on line, both of which were substantially larger and approached the load capacity of 100 tons that Claude and Wally were shooting for.

I'll post some shots of the first truck as soon as i figure out how to do it.

More to follow,

Cheers.

 

[Contract Logger]

Here's a decent color shot of the Mark 5 I've had for awhile. Not sure of year or location......?

I have alot of old black & white pics of this rig but will require much scanning

 

[Truckmodeler]

Here are some shots of the first truck in 1961. These came from Barney Oldfield's files and they are the earliest ones I've found. The fellow on the cab step in the B&W roll-out shot is Barney. The shop behind him is still there and in good shape.

Someone with a good eye may be able to tell me the model of Jimmy (I'm assuming its a Jimmy from the colour) in the right hand view. Not really sure but perhaps its a 6-71?

This first truck really had not taken on the low profile cab-under-load configuration of the later trucks but did allow for some load above the cab.

Next up, the #36 truck of 1964.

Cheers.

 

[RonG]

The twin stacks are a clue but it appears to be a V12-71 Detroit.I don't see it as an inline engine from what I can see,good pics all.Ron G

 

[Truckmodeler]

Thanks Ron G. I should have picked up on the twin stacks, I just didn't look close enough.
The 12V-71 makes sense as that model was reportedly also used in a susequent truck. In hindsight, the load would warrant the engine size.

 

[HDX]

Truckmodeler, This is great--heard you made contact with Larry Great Maybe we can all pool our pics of some of this off the wall stuff and show everybody what we once had here!!!! Lots of one of stuff

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Ron has it pegged. 12V-71 non turbo.
I think the Mark 5 has a turboed version, but I'm not sure. It's enough bigger to need it.

Great thread. I am looking forward to learning more about these unique rigs.

 

[Truckmodeler]

Actually the Mark 5 was designed from the outset to use a 16V-71T1 initially rated at 800 bhp. I've chatted to the designer of that truck several times and he said they had planned to get it up to 1000 bhp. Whether it ever was done I don't know.

After the first truck, Claude Butler and Wally Butler wanted to go bigger and were aiming for a 100 ton payload. They stuck with the articulated design but this time built a much larger truck - the #36. This appears to be the second most photographed truck of the 4, next to the Mark 5. The #36 was built in about 1963-64. I have found an old Butler Tire ad from November 1964 showing the #36 in operation. It was built in an old hangar at the Victoria airport. While I don't know who actually designed it, there is reason to speculate that Claude Butler and Barney Oldfield combined talents again. Both were avid pilots and connected to the airport. One of the photos below shows the #36 on roll-out with Basil Oldfield's famous 'Spirit of Tomorrow' aerodynamic car in front of it. The hangar in the background is still standing and I have a confirmation by a fellow who used to know Oldfield that he was somehow involved.
The #36 utilized the same rigid frame with articulated power bogies under each end. Tires were now 1600's and they ran on planetary axles. The cab, and the whole truck, sat a little lower. I've heard from one of the Butler family that the engine was a 12V-71, just like the first truck. The whole truck was wider and longer and was the first to be dubbed 'the roller skate'. I don't know for sure but I think the bunks were 15 or 16 feet across. I'm hoping to chat with some guys who loaded and dumped these trucks this fall so I'll find out more then.

In talking with Andy Byrne, it sounds like this is the truck he ended up with prior to getting the Mark 5. Not sure how long he used it but in the end he used the axles for re-building a couple of Kenworth 849's. I'm still hoping to get some further info on this truck but I'm thinking that it went to Bryne in the early 70's.

Next up, the second #70.

 

[Truckmodeler]

The third truck has been a definite challenge in researching. One of my early discoveries was an article from 1974 in a local community newspaper written at the time of the roll-out of the Mark 5. In that article, which involved an interview with Claude Butler, a reference was made to "two trucks built in a Hangar at the Victoria airport". These were both prior to the Mark 5 but there were no other references to a second 'sister' truck to the #36. My interviews with the designer of the Mark 5 yielded another clue - they had cut up one of the earlier trucks in the Butler yard during the Mark 5 years. It wasn't the first one and the #36 had gone to Andy Byrne. In the end, I discovered a third truck had in fact been built, more powerful than the #36 and while little information has come to light on this I did find some photos.

Then, in a recent interview with a member of the Butler family, he instantly referred to the third truck as "the second #70" and offered this information:
- it was built in the airport hangar
- it used standard axles and 1600 tires
- it had a 16V-71 (not sure if it had turbo)
- it was slightly bigger than the 36
- it was designed to carry the original goal of 100 tons
- it was designed to haul a pup with 100 tons on that
- it was built not too long after the #36 (he could not specify a date)

When the Mark 5 designer told me they cut one up, it was because the frame was twisted and cracked beyond any repairs. One look at the photo below with the pup and its no wonder.

What has also confused the history here is that, to the casual observer, the second #70 looks very similar to the #36. However, there are distinct differences - the cab protector, the bunk stakes, the frame mounted tanks, the wheels.

The faded colour shots of this truck are from the Oldfield collection and from this and the similarity with #36 I am surmising that Barney Oldfield was still somehow connected to the design or build of this truck.

As to the final end of this truck, I am assuming that the designer of the Mark 5 was referring to it when he said they cut one up, its the only one it could be. Another Butler employee of that time refers to the cutting up of the Mark 5 in the yard but that has to be a case of mistaken identity since the Mark 5 is resting in Andy Bryne's yard at this time. However, that former employee adds a small bit of information that is relevant -the truck that was cut up had "two 8-71's bolted together" which may very well be referring to the 16V71 that I referred to earlier. That would have most likely been in the late 70's or early 80's, while both men were working for Butlers on their concrete truck fleet.

OK, there is only one to go - the Mark 5. They pulled out all the stops on that one. Paraphrasing the designer - 'I told Claude if he wanted a big log truck we should build the biggest we can with the biggest drive train components we can get our hands on'. Something like that.

More soon.

 

[Contract Logger]

What a great thread, and full of history. Thank you for doing all this research! Sorry if I screwed up your rhythm and/or sequence here by posting that color shot too early, I didnt realize you were going from start to finish. Wish I'd have held it to until the end.
Anyway, thanks again- much here I didn't know!

 

[DBDLS]

Just a quick note: TRUCKING magazine's Summer 2010 issue has an excellent article on the Butler Brother logging trucks. Back issues are still available from: http://www.myfavouritemagazines.co.uk/cars-motors/trucking-magazine-back-issues/ and for an extremely reasonable price. It's probably easier to Google: Butler Brothers Mark 5 than to type in the above. Hope this helps.

 

[Truckmodeler]

CL, all photos of these trucks are totally welcome. I'm hoping this thread will lead to some discoveries of information and photos that are hiding in memories and old boxes.
I must say that my hat is off to you for all the great photos you have posted, I've spent many hours going over them time and time again. Fortunately for all of us interested in this stuff there are people, like yourself, who take the time to photograph stuff that many would just pass by. Its so true that the 'commonplace stuff' of the present will often become the 'fascinating and rare, old stuff' in future years. It would appear that one of the best mottos might well be 'never leave home without a camera'. Many Thanks for carrying that camera and documenting stuff that otherwise would have been or soon will be lost to history.

Regards.

 

[JTL]

Very interesting truck. The first model they built is kinda Payhauler like.

 

[Hayesno1]

Truckmodeler; Thanks for sharing your great information and pictures. I'm hoping this thread will see some new photos and information that may complete the history of The Butler trucks. Sorry I don't have any pics. Keep up your great work. FYI Truckmodeler; this site got a model thread as well.

 

[macktuf1973]

great machine.

 

[Truckmodeler]

The last Butler truck was the Mark 5, built in 1973-74. Since the building of the third truck, several things had happened that contributed to the design of the Mark 5.
First, a new regulation put forward in the late 1960's meant that auxilary power or manual means of steering had to be available for trucks if the main engine failed. Since the articulated design of the first 3 trucks required massive power for steering, the steering was powered from the main engine. Manual or auxilary power steering was simply not feasible with the articulated design of the earlier trucks and so something had to change.
Second, the drive line components had steadily increased in size and load capacity making the 100 ton load goal far more realistic.
Third, a new designer came aboard at Butlers. Cliff Burrows had spent some time working at Canadian Kenworth and knew truck design.
Fourth, Claude was now looking beyond the 'building our own trucks' idea and was now thinking more of building a truck which had applications in other industries - mining work for instance. As well, he was looking more at building a prototype for a truck that could be manufactured and sold to the west coast logging industry rather than being just a Butler struck.
Fifth, in the early 1970's the federal Government was putting up funds for industrial technology development in the effort to spur on the manufacturing sector. They would grant upwards of 50% of the required funding for approved projects.

Since the steering problem was critical, the new design used a twin-steer unpowered front end and a massive twin Clark 121,000 planetary axles rear bogie. The new components were now heavy enough to take the 100 ton load and not require power bogies front and rear. The rear axles were driven from a Detroit 16v71-T1 through an Allison transmission. Rear ends and transmission were, at the time, the largest models made by the respective firms. The front axles were Darts from haul trucks and mine loaders. Each front axle reportedly weighed 5200 lbs and had a load rating of 25 tons. All in, the load capacity of the 4 axles was in excess of 100 tons. As Cliff Burrows told me, it was the first truck of the four that was specifically rated at more than the 100 ton goal. With the twin steer system, a much smaller auxilary steering system was required in event of a main engine failure. This aux system was simply engaged by a switch in the cab, as far as I've found out.
The new drive line also meant that there was no longer a need for dual tires all around. Thus the rear drive axles sported 1600x25 tires but to carry the load the four front single tires were now 1800x33, over 6 feet in diameter.

According to my research so far, Cliff's experience and Claude's willingness to accept design input from drivers etc. led to a much different truck than the earlier ones. The engine was now much more accessible by means of the cab protector hinging back exposing the entire engine and systems. The cab was air-mounted for comfort. The cab was much more comfortably designed and built when compared to the earlier trucks. The water tank was originally on the side of the main frame but was moved to underneath the rear of the frame fairly early on, a point that I understand came from the drivers in the field.
Some other spec's are:
bunks - 15 or 16 feet (various accounts on this)
stakes - 8 feet high
main frame - 9 inch channel with huge gusset plates holding the engine and cab assembly
overall length - 42 feet, 80 feet with pup trailer
pup trailer - Manufactured to Butler design by Columbia Trailers, 1600x25 tires


The Mark 5 rolled out of the Butler shops in 1974 and even getting it to the logging grounds was a chore. It had to be barged to Cowichan Bay then put on railroad flatcars to get it to Lake Cowichan. From there it drove the logging roads to Sooke. All this because it was just to big and heavy for the public roads.
Its working life for Butlers was relatively short. An early post in this thread shows the truck up for sale with only 2 years of work under its belt. I'm not sure just how long it did work for Butlers but they actually painted it in M&B colours for a test period with M&B. The story I heard was that M&B was fairly interested at one point but declined to purchase after their testing period. Most likely because it was effectively an orphaned monster and not easily adapted into an existing fleet. While I don't yet have a timeline, it was eventually sold to Andy Byrne and its still there, minus the rear axles and in need of some very serious restoration work - anyone up for a wee bit of a challenge????

In one of my earlier posts, I said that Butlers liked the number 70. Well, up until a few months back, I had assumed the mark 5 never wore a number. I certainly never saw a photo of her wearing one. Then an old friend of mine sent me a photo he took back in the 1970's and lo and behold - the Mark 5 was the third #70!!!

Anyway, I have some other things I'll mention next post and round up some more photos. For now, I've got a few shots of her in her prime.

Cheers.

 

[Contract Logger]

Having been around railroad operations from a young age, to me in the photo looking down from above this thing looks an awful lot like a 'skeleton' log car! Never even made that connection with these trucks until now, but wow, there it is.

Kind of a self-propelled overland skeleton log car.....

Enough of my blathering. Awesome thread and thanks again for sharing your knowledge with those of us who are ever-curious like I am!

 

[Dave Hadden]

Once again I'm blown away by the knowledge some of you guys have.
Awesome!!

I remember the "roller skate" from my days in Jordan River and Port Renfrew, 1975-1987. I think we (BCFP) tried it out a bit as I recall it in the line-up for a short period at Renfrew.
Pretty skookum truck for sure but that 100 ton mark they aimed at was quite routinely accomplished by P-16's and HDX's at Gold River in the '60's.
We weighed every load that came off a truck down at the dump (run by "Liquid" Larry) and while not all were 100 tons I recall many that were. All old growth back then and we ran 14' bunks, so you could carry quite a whack.

Geeze I wish I'd thought to take photo's back then, but it was just all part and parcel of what was normal work in the industry. Never seemed like anything special.......just a job.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing your pics and knowledge with us.
Much appreciated.

Take care.

 

[Truckmodeler]

I've wondered about the goal of 100 tons being something that was being accomplished by other trucks - P16 and HDX. Seems it wasn't that lofty a goal by the time the Mark 5 rolled out. One of the other claims made by Claude Butler was that it provided a "stump to dump" load of 200 tons with pup when other rigs were having to gang up at a mid-point to make the same payload at the dump. I have no idea, since I've never been in the industry, whether this really was a major selling point or not. Perhaps others could offer opinions or knowledge on that point.
However, one of the things I found rather fascinating about this design after studying photos and plans was the seemingly 'all-terrain' style suspension they built into it. The designer claimed they wanted rough terrain capability, not just off-highway capability. To this end they put the truck through some testing in the Butler Gravel pit in Saanichton before it left the yard. The photos (from the designer's collection) included here show some of the range of motion of the axles they designed. I have no idea how this compares to Hayes and Pacific trucks of the day. Regardless, when one considers that those front tires are over 6 feet in diameter, I find it impressive that this is approaching all-terrain suspension. I cannot see the design of the earlier articulated trucks allowing for that much motion in the suspension.
I'm not sure when Butlers began 'touring' the Mark 5 looking for a sale. As far as I know it worked in Sooke, Port Renfrew and Menzies Bay. I'm sure there are other places as well but these are the ones I've come across so far. Anyone who saw this working in another location please add it to the list. In the end, it was sold to Andy Byrne. Cliff Burrows remembers putting it on a barge for the trip north - I'm still looking to find out what year that was. I also believe that before it went to Andy it was repainted in the Butler colours but i don't know for sure. Interestingly enough, while it was painted in M&B colours for awhile, I believe it still wore the Butlers Logo, at least in one of the photos I've seen it did. I guess since it was still 'on loan pending purchase' it was still technically a Butler truck.
Early in its life, the mark 5 was the subject of a marketing brochure. In that there is an artists rendering of it in the roll of a mine haul truck with hopper and hopper pup. The story goes that there was a possible deal in the works to sell a few of them to a mine in Chile. The deal was supposedly nearing the approval stage when a military coup in Chile put an end to the entire deal. So, for a brief moment, Claude Butler's dream of manufacturing and selling more of the mark 5 was almost a reality. At this point i have not found any reference to any other interested purchasers, logging or otherwise, except for some quotes in which Claude indicates there was interest from as far away as Australia and the oil fields of the Middle East.

So, for now, that's it. I'm looking to chatting with some former Butler people and trying to fill in the blanks on all of the trucks. Much like so many other pieces of equipment -to many people they were just trucks doing their job. Now, little remains of any of them and the history is fading. Hopefully this thread will find some long lost photos and/or experiences that add to the story.

Cheers.

 

[STEVEGODSEYJR]

WOW!!!!!! I just read this entire thread and all I can say is WOW!!!! What a truck and what a story. Thank you to all who have contributed. This is very interesting and I will continue to watch as this thread grows. Steve