Cat Vs. Deere

[Greg]

Your experience sounds like mine. Expecially in the hydraulics department. Just like an F-16 Fighter. Work them two hours, work on the hydraulics six hours. Oh ya, and are they some miserable d--- things to work on too.

 

[Digger1000]

LDK, can you elaborate on what is wrong with your 750J? Also, I keep hearing that Deere's are so hard to work on. Greg-are we talking about new machines here or ones from 3-4 decades ago?

 

[dieseldave]

Dielseldave, it will be a month next week since that 750j went back to the dealer and it's still not fixed, it only has 2500 hours on it?
At the start of this week out of 5 assorted Deeres, none more than 2 years old, we had one running. The only way I would touch them again is if they gave them to me and threw in a mechanic. Once bitten twice shy!

Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? They're such nice machines, too... Every year the contractors we work for rent whichever dozers they can get based on price and availability, so we might end up with Komatsu D65's, Cat D6's, or Deere 850's. I always kinda hope for an 850 and then hope even more that it will hang together This one was my all-time favorite, I ran it when it was brand new in '03 and it sure was sweet. I got it again in '07 (last pic) and it was sad to see how much it had deteriorated.

Also, I was in error in my first post. I shouldn't have included TLB's in my statement, because in my experience the opposite has been true- the Deere's have been great machines and very reliable, the Cat's POS.

 

[farm_boy]

The deeres in my experience are a b---- to work on. Like I said before in here. I have even been accused of wearing Cat underwear.

BUT the Deere will be down far more often, which is compunded by inferior parts availability and service. And heaven help you if you have to wrench on it yourself, they're an itch with a capital "B" to work on.

At the start of this week out of 5 assorted Deeres, none more than 2 years old, we had one running. The only way I would touch them again is if they gave them to me and threw in a mechanic. Once bitten twice shy!

Your experience sounds like mine. Expecially in the hydraulics department. Just like an F-16 Fighter. Work them two hours, work on the hydraulics six hours. Oh ya, and are they some miserable d--- things to work on too.

Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? They're such nice machines, too... Every year the contractors we work for rent whichever dozers they can get based on price and availability, so we might end up with Komatsu D65's, Cat D6's, or Deere 850's. I always kinda hope for an 850 and then hope even more that it will hang together This one was my all-time favorite, I ran it when it was brand new in '03 and it sure was sweet. I got it again in '07 (last pic) and it was sad to see how much it had deteriorated.

First of all....Greg....I think you should look for some different tighty whities...maybe some Fruit of the Looms.

Answer me this....if ALL new Deere machines are such a "itch with a capital B" to work on and the parts support is soooo bad how is Deere the clear #2 construction equipment player in North America??

Seriously, there is a reason that Cat and Deere are #1 and #2 in the largest construction equipment market in the world....its support, whether its service or parts. Now, with that being said I can't speak for either one in Argentina. I can say that there is probably room for improvement in markets outside of North America.

As far as being a pain in the arsh to work on....if we are comparing C-series Dozers to brand new Cats....I would probably agree. BUT I think most would conccur that this comparison isn't apples and apples. Compare a new 850J to a D6T for routine maintenance...and I mean really compare the two... and I bet one will would pick the Deere.

Lastly, Dieseldave...I think everyone on this board would agree that a machine brand new in 03 (regardless of whose build it) would be a lot different machine after four seasons of being abused as a rental tractor.

 

[dieseldave]

Lastly, Dieseldave...I think everyone on this board would agree that a machine brand new in 03 (regardless of whose build it) would be a lot different machine after four seasons of being abused as a rental tractor.

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit. We rent from the same places year after year and often get the same machines time and time again. We had a pair of late-90's D65's that were with us every year since they were new. They finally went off to auction last year. While they did have some problems and were showing their age, they were still decent, reliable machines right to the end even with over 15000 hours on the clock. And they were owned by a company not known for rigorous and exacting maintenance, so TLC wasn't what was keeping them on the job. The 850 at 4 years old and 5000 hours or so felt and behaved- evidenced by it's rate of availability- like a much older machine.The 850 was rented from a dealer, not a rental company, so it should have had better maintenance. It obviously didn't, which doesn't speak well of the dealer "support". Neither did the ability and knowledge of the "servicemen" that Deere sent out to repair them. I realize that this is only one dealer, not a global cross-section, but that's what my experience has been, and from what I understand my experience is not unique. I don't have a lot of experience with newer Cat's, but the corps of engineers where we are has half a dozen D6R's, all with 10,000+ hours on them and while they have failures as any machine will they are generally reliable pieces that can be counted on to put in a day's work. They are, I'll admit, pretty well cared for by the local dealer.
My point, Farm Boy, is not that a four year old machine is the same as a new one. It is that the machine deteriorated at a rate far higher than I would have expected, regardless of it's use. The two competitors machines (groups of machines, actually- my Deere was one of four that we rented for years, so it wasn't just a case of a solitary lemon) that I compare it to were in better shape, were more reliable and had better availability despite having more than twice the years and twice the hours on their clocks.

The first pic is from '04, the 65's had 7-8000 hours on them and were very good reliable machines.
The second pic is from '08 and is one of the same 65's from the above pic, 15000+ hours "being abused as a rental tractor" and still strong, functional and reliable- more than I can say for the 850 pictured in my former post. Didn't have the "new car smell" any more, thoughointhead

 

[I AM IRONMAN]

extra post

 

[I AM IRONMAN]

All Three are good brands

The second pic is from '08 and is one of the same 65's from the above pic, 15000+ hours "being abused as a rental tractor" and still strong, functional and reliable- more than I can say for the 850 pictured in my former post. Didn't have the "new car smell" any more, though

If that machine in the 2nd pic has over 15,000 hours it must have been driven to church on Sunday by an old lady!! And left Idling!

Looks awful shiny! Must have had excellent care!

I've know several people that ran both 850's and 65's, and I don't think anyone of them would pic the Kom.

As far as easy to work on, the 850 Deere is by far the easiest to work on with the tilting cab, and the Deere has half the parts of a Cat in the Drive Train. No brakes or steering clutches which are both high maitenance.

The Cat and Deere are both very good machines, but if there was no competition against The Cat Dealer, they would be impossible to work with!

That's why Deere and Komatsu get a lot of their buisness, it's because the Cat Dealer eventually upsets most of their customers over one thing or another, and people won't go back

 

[dieseldave]

If that machine in the 2nd pic has over 15,000 hours it must have been driven to church on Sunday by an old lady!! And left Idling!

Looks awful shiny! Must have had excellent care!

Ok, you got me on that one The hour meter had been out of commission for a couple of years (stopped at 11,000+) so it might have only had 12,000 hours on it by that time. Whatever the true number, it was over twice what the Deere had.
It was never driven on Sunday, I was too busy washing and waxing it to maintain it's shiny-ness, and the old lady NEVER left it idle!
BTW, kudos on your ability to tell how many hours are on a machine from 200ft away- you might be able to get on TV with that:tong Seriously, most of the work around here is in mud or sand- no rock- so high-hour machines often still "look" good.

I've know several people that ran both 850's and 65's, and I don't think anyone of them would pic the Kom.

Hmmmmm... that's the exact opposite of my experience. The operators I work with grab up the 65's first. Personally, I like the 850's, but I'm definitely in the minority.

As far as easy to work on, the 850 Deere is by far the easiest to work on with the tilting cab, and the Deere has half the parts of a Cat in the Drive Train. No brakes or steering clutches which are both high maitenance.

Oh right, I forgot that those pumps, motors and hoses in the Deere's lasted forever:falldownlaugh As for the tilting cabs, it's a good thing ours had 'em, because the JD guys sure got alot of use out of 'em. Had to put grease fittings on the cab tilt hinge pins, they were starting to wear out

The Cat and Deere are both very good machines, but if there was no competition against The Cat Dealer, they would be impossible to work with!

That's why Deere and Komatsu get a lot of their buisness, it's because the Cat Dealer eventually upsets most of their customers over one thing or another, and people won't go back

Just one more example of how our experiences differ. The Cat dealer here is very good (yeah, their prices are outrageous, but so are Komatsu's and Deere's) and their service is excellent. I never dealt much with Komatsu, but the local Deere dealer is horrible.

Much of what I've said above is tongue in cheek, no offense intended:angel- but after many years of working with these machines under the same conditions- and call me a liar, call me a fool, if that makes you feel better- in my experience the Deere's fell apart quicker and more often than the Cat's or Komatsu's working alongside them. Your own experience may differ:drinkup

 

[I AM IRONMAN]

I'm learning lots!

You definetly know your stuff Dave! :notworthy
My posts are mostly just for fun to!
I'm just here to relax and try to learn a few things.

I'm finding a huge amount of information about everything from heavy equipment to Heavy Haul Trucks, not to mention what can be done with some of this equipment! :drinkup

 

[dieseldave]

You definetly know your stuff Dave! :notworthy
My posts are mostly just for fun to!
I'm just here to relax and try to learn a few things.

I'm finding a huge amount of information about everything from heavy equipment to Heavy Haul Trucks, not to mention what can be done with some of this equipment! :drinkup

Nahh, I just fake it. :duh This forum is great, it really is a lot of fun to have a discussion like the one above:beerchug Makes me think and let's me practice my snappy comebacks as well I learn a lot on here,too, and see equipment and techniques that I'd not know about otherwise. It also makes me feel good to see that there are a lot of young folks on here who love their work, take pride in themselves and their machines and have a work ethic.:thumbsup

Good fun all around!:drinkup

 

[Wyonate]

I have been on machines my whole life and my honest opinion is that the weight/power distribution of Cat far exceeds any other machine that I have ran.

 

[KY Jim]

Dieseldave and Ironman make EXCELLENT points. It's the DEALER as much as the machine. A Bad dealer will ruin good machines, and a Good dealer will Make mediocre machines Worth It. And YES, Cat DOES **** their customers off, in MAJOR ways. Their dealers are usually generations-old, and they seem to have the attitude that you can Take It or LEAVE, they don't care. Unless you own a HUGE outfit, you're just a Number, and a Prospective Mark.
Now, a Question. What brainless IDIOT came up with that stupid flat-face fitting and O-ring setup on John Deere's?! I swear, I'd like to drive him face-first into the dirt with a trackhoe! Not tight enough, it won't seal, and leaks. The LEAST BIT too tight, it ruins the O-ring and it leaks! You HAVE to have The Touch, seems like. That's why I just remove/replace hoses, and make The Boss torque the fittings himself. He says it saves on o-rings, and he's RIGHT.
KY Jim

 

[farm_boy]

KY Jim,

I'm a little confused about your comment regarding ORS hoses. O-ring faced seals are used by just about every manufacturer these days and typically are MUCH better in preventing leaks when compared to the old flare fittings.

 

[earthscratcher]

i am looking at purchasing a newer midsize dozer!so i called a buddy who owns a heavy equipment repair shop,he repairs all types,he is not brand loyal whatsoever.he told me the 700j to 450j are the best machines going.anything bigger, cat all the way!anything older than the j series go cat!

 

[Abscraperguy]

Dieseldave and Ironman make EXCELLENT points. It's the DEALER as much as the machine. A Bad dealer will ruin good machines, and a Good dealer will Make mediocre machines Worth It. And YES, Cat DOES **** their customers off, in MAJOR ways. Their dealers are usually generations-old, and they seem to have the attitude that you can Take It or LEAVE, they don't care. Unless you own a HUGE outfit, you're just a Number, and a Prospective Mark.

Amen. Well said. Here in Alberta there's a lot of pressure to run Cat from the oilfield sector. Oilfield consultants want to see fleets of Cats on the leases as they think it's a prestige thing. Finning (Cat) is known among the contractors I associate with for their careless attitude. I spent a morning in their shop one time and there were more guys standing around toolboxes visiting than actually working all at $150/hr. Among the underground and roadbuilding contractors we see an aweful lot of Deere. The wheel loaders, smaller dozers, an excavators are predominantly Deere in northern Alberta. The contractor I used to work for had both Deere's and Cat's but I really fell in love with the Deere 700H for finishing. Smooth, fast, comfortable, and a good pusher; what more do you want?

 

[Case 580e]

i ran a jd 650 and i ran a jd450j lgp I liked them. Also I own a cat d4c and when I get a full blade of mud that dozer just keeps on goin the deeres seem that they just want to quit in that mud. But thats just my opinion