Only thing they had in common was the bore spacing. The 351M and 400 were 335 series engines like the 351C, but they were physically larger, heavier, and had very little aftermarket support compared to the Windsor. Weight difference was about 50lbs, although build a 351w with an aluminum top end, mini starter, etc and the difference is 100lbs+. The 2v smog heads that came on the M's look decent at first glance (canted 2.04/1.65 valves, etc) but had huge 78cc chambers (low compression) and didn't flow good. They were a good yeoman duty engine in the large cars, trucks and full-size bronco, but nothing to write home about performance wise.
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Cummins new gas engine
- Thread starter Welder Dave
- Start date
HATCHEQUIP
Senior Member
Some Oliver tractors as far back as the 50s i know had Waukesha engines that were LP, gas or diesel and it was all the same blocks and heads that were blocked off where the gas or diesel variants went. Engines had pressurized oil systems except for the rods that had little funnel spots on top that caught the oil to lubricate the rod bearings.
Truck Shop
Senior Member
From a aluminum head standpoint yes--it takes a little valve bowl work and a very low volume
dome piston to correct that problem.
Diesel engines are just plain a bad deal now, fuel systems and emission systems made them into a rich mans power plant. And none of them are as reliable as the old days.
If the gasoline engine is built using some of the same design features of a diesel engine that is a good thing. Well depends on the diesel I guess, I for fun started studying the 6.7 PS, I see very little good about it at all. How can a person become a consultant to some of these idiot outfits to offer some suggestions of how to do it the right way? Its all about cutting corners now, no wonder the problems, recalls etc.
If the gasoline engine is built using some of the same design features of a diesel engine that is a good thing. Well depends on the diesel I guess, I for fun started studying the 6.7 PS, I see very little good about it at all. How can a person become a consultant to some of these idiot outfits to offer some suggestions of how to do it the right way? Its all about cutting corners now, no wonder the problems, recalls etc.
cfherrman
Senior Member
Emissions might get rolled back and it might kill this gad engine.
I would just figure about half the fuel economy and half the life of the engine, remember exhaust it a lot hotter with gasoline.
I would just figure about half the fuel economy and half the life of the engine, remember exhaust it a lot hotter with gasoline.
92U 3406
Senior Member
I'm in the market for a 1 ton and unless I find a diesel from the early 2000's that isn't beat into the ground I'll be buying a gasser. $15k upcharge for a new diesel is nuts. Price difference alone buys 10,000 liters of gasoline.
colson04
Senior Member
and that's why my grandpa never bought diesel pick ups for the farm. He said it didn't make financial sense.
Our 2013 Chevy 2500HD was bought used with 40,000 miles for $15,000+/-. The 6.0 gas engine has plenty of power to tow 14,000 pounds and it always starts no matter the temperature. We've put 30,000 miles on it now with nothing more than oil changes. I don't know what the fuel mileage is, but we don't really care either because this truck is our primary tow vehicle. It just needs to start when we need it and get the load down the road.
92U 3406
Senior Member
By the sounds of it the fuel mileage difference between a new diesel and a new gasser isn't much. I bet it takes around 200,000 to 250,000 km to make up the difference in purchase price alone. Not to mention the possibility of drastically reduced reliability from the emission systems. Won't be cheap to fix that stuff once it's out of warranty. Even under warranty who has the time to sit around for 2 weeks every time it ends up at the dealer?
CM1995
Administrator
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My $.02 -
Owned many diesel pickups over the years with a couple of gassers thrown in, including a 1998 2500 Chevy I bought new that was a total POS. Haven't bought a GM product since then.
First of all we have not had any issues with the new emissions with DEF on our pickups. 3 Ford 6.7's and 1 RAM 6.7. One 6.7 has 200K on the clock, sold one with 90K, the other 50K and the RAM 100K. Not a heap of miles but it's what we've experienced.
A diesel pickup will cost approx. $10K more to purchase than a comparable gasser but the diesel truck will bring around $8-10K more on the used market than a gasser of similar age, miles and condition.
Diesel is normally more expensive than gasoline at the pump however diesel trucks perform better and get better milage under load than a comparable gas powered truck. Diesel costs more to maintain but you can get more miles out of an oil change. Biggest plus is power and torque when you use a truck for work hauling and towing on a regular basis. No alternate for that.
Personally I have no desire to ever buy another gas powered 3/4-1 ton truck.
With the EPA cutting many regulations, we might actually see some of this emissions equipment go away on trucks and equipment which would be outstanding. If that does happen I am deleting every truck and piece of equipment out of warranty that has DPF's and uses DEF.
Interesting times no doubt.
Owned many diesel pickups over the years with a couple of gassers thrown in, including a 1998 2500 Chevy I bought new that was a total POS. Haven't bought a GM product since then.
First of all we have not had any issues with the new emissions with DEF on our pickups. 3 Ford 6.7's and 1 RAM 6.7. One 6.7 has 200K on the clock, sold one with 90K, the other 50K and the RAM 100K. Not a heap of miles but it's what we've experienced.
A diesel pickup will cost approx. $10K more to purchase than a comparable gasser but the diesel truck will bring around $8-10K more on the used market than a gasser of similar age, miles and condition.
Diesel is normally more expensive than gasoline at the pump however diesel trucks perform better and get better milage under load than a comparable gas powered truck. Diesel costs more to maintain but you can get more miles out of an oil change. Biggest plus is power and torque when you use a truck for work hauling and towing on a regular basis. No alternate for that.
Personally I have no desire to ever buy another gas powered 3/4-1 ton truck.
With the EPA cutting many regulations, we might actually see some of this emissions equipment go away on trucks and equipment which would be outstanding. If that does happen I am deleting every truck and piece of equipment out of warranty that has DPF's and uses DEF.
Interesting times no doubt.
Mike L
Senior Member
I keep hearing about emissions going away but in reality what are the odds of this? Don’t get me wrong, I think it would be great but it just doesn’t seem realistic. even if it does, how does California play into this? They seem to be playing by a set of rules even stricter than everyone else.
HarleyHappy
Senior Member
My experience is, diesel was great 10 years ago now not so much.
Costs more to maintain and you never see the payback unless you run it for 500+k miles or you trade it in, or outright sell it.
Diesel trucks always made bank on their resale and trade in value but that’s when people could justify it.
Going to be interesting times ahead.
As much as I don’t like Fords, I got 700k miles out of a 7.3 and didn’t do anything other than a couple of batteries, a water pump and oil changes.
When I got rid of it the blow by sounded like a raccoon squalling every time it turned over.
I miss that truck.
My brother claims all these small displacement gas turbos, are only good for so many miles and then require serious work.
That is all you are going to get, if things don’t change.
My next truck, might be a 5.7 gasser in a Tundra package.
Costs more to maintain and you never see the payback unless you run it for 500+k miles or you trade it in, or outright sell it.
Diesel trucks always made bank on their resale and trade in value but that’s when people could justify it.
Going to be interesting times ahead.
As much as I don’t like Fords, I got 700k miles out of a 7.3 and didn’t do anything other than a couple of batteries, a water pump and oil changes.
When I got rid of it the blow by sounded like a raccoon squalling every time it turned over.
I miss that truck.
My brother claims all these small displacement gas turbos, are only good for so many miles and then require serious work.
That is all you are going to get, if things don’t change.
My next truck, might be a 5.7 gasser in a Tundra package.
Birken Vogt
Charter Member
Yeah I'll believe that when I see it.
Mike L
Senior Member
I’ve got a 2014 tundra with the 5.7. Bought it in 2017 with 38k on the odometer. It currently has 137k on it. Haven’t done anything outside of regular maintenance. Most of the miles have been towing a boat. Runs like a scalded cat, not good on gas. It’s paid for and I don’t care about mpg. With the price of new pickups, I’ll be driving it until it rots out or falls apart. Then i’ll replace it with another Toyota.
Welder Dave
Senior Member
So a diesel truck costs $10-$15K more up front, requires more expensive maintenance, repairs and fuel and gets $10K more on resale. How is that more economical than a gas truck? If you do a lot of heavy towing a diesel makes more sense. A diesel can get better mileage but that is negated some because it costs more. It's the same argument with JD tractors. Yeah, they cost more but have better resale value. Well they should.
6.0L GM gas engines have good power but are absolute pigs on gas if not needed for towing. I think the Ford Ecoboost is a big step in the right direction. Low RPM torque similar to a diesel and no emissions crap to deal with or have to repair. Cummins could be onto something with their new engine but it's too early to tell. Emissions guidelines may get a slight reprieve but they're never going to go away. Cat stopped making on highway engines because of tough emissions standards. It's hard to say if they are losing billions of $$$$$$$ to their competitors or if it wasn't cost effective to continue with on highway engines. They obviously thought it was a losing battle. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years.
6.0L GM gas engines have good power but are absolute pigs on gas if not needed for towing. I think the Ford Ecoboost is a big step in the right direction. Low RPM torque similar to a diesel and no emissions crap to deal with or have to repair. Cummins could be onto something with their new engine but it's too early to tell. Emissions guidelines may get a slight reprieve but they're never going to go away. Cat stopped making on highway engines because of tough emissions standards. It's hard to say if they are losing billions of $$$$$$$ to their competitors or if it wasn't cost effective to continue with on highway engines. They obviously thought it was a losing battle. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few years.
Diesel engines will still be crap, unless its an instant return to the old reliable zero electronics involved, and proven designs of the 80's and 90's as far as pick up engines go.
Yeah it was just crazy hearing about those Ca fire trucks during that mess and how some from other states not allowed since they didn't pass emissions. Then there is the other vehicles like EMS etc, parked on a road side because of a sesor or loose wire, with an injured person on board, those should have the most reliable nonelectronic power source possible.
Oh and what makes most engines pigs on gas is, reducing efficiency with the emiss crap, like egr pollution of the combustion process, etc etc.
Welder Dave
Senior Member
There's a good reason military diesels are exempt from most of the emissions systems.
Agreed. Even if they get rid of the emissions crap on the new diesels, customers are still going to demand the huge power numbers that they've been running the past few years, probably even more. I don't want 1000+lb-ft in my pickup, I want reliability, longevity, and good economy, all which are gone now.
Newest diesel I owned was a '99 F-250 with the 7.3 PS and 6 speed. Perfect blend of power and economy, I think it was like 260hp/525lb-ft. That's all you need in a pickup, if that level of power is inadequate either get a bigger truck or stop trying to tow at 80mph.
As to completely deregulating the emissions on diesel trucks, I don't think the industry is going to react the way people think it will. They have spent decades and billions of dollars working on the technology they are currently using. I doubt they are going to completely retool everything and go back to making tier 1 engines from the 90's. What happens in 4 years when a different administration comes in? What about the rest of the developed world that still has strict emissions standards?
I have no problem with cleaner air, but it has to be done in a way that is sensible and economically feasible. I don't mind catalytic converters on cars, or even the DPF on the new diesels, as long as they work correctly and don't cause any hardships for me. I do have a major problem with anything requiring DEF, that is a terrible band aid technology that DOES cause considerable extra expense, maintenance and downtime. I don't own anything that runs DEF and I hope I never have to.
CAFE fuel economy standards are hopefully one that will get axed. Like so many government programs, they had good intentions but it was horribly written and implemented. CAFE is the reason why you can't buy a true compact pickup anymore, 'economy cars' are the size of a full size sedan, and they do stupid stuff like make the wheelbase of a reg cab 3/4 ton truck several inches longer. It's a classic example of a law having exactly the opposite effect that they desired.
cfherrman
Senior Member
The commonly regarded as the two best diesels is the n14 and the series 60, both are electronic.
I would say you need at least 300 HP in a pickup, and as far as Ford goes the 5r110 (03+) combined with a vgt turbo extremely changes a pickup diesel and I believe why so many people love the 6.0 over the 7.3.
I Have heard many things but the common is roll back 20 years, they would just sell delete kits and tunes, oems would just have factory deleted engines, they are not going to make different engines then what they can do now.
Lots of people think smog and etc will come back, fuel injection gas engines and common rail diesels run so much better it would take a lot of people abusing black smoke for something like that to come back.
I also heard that 200k of a pickup diesel nox emissions is equal to 5 lightning strikes, so those def boxes are extremely way harder on the environment that an engine.
I'd just like to see something where you can't roll smoke or something
I would say you need at least 300 HP in a pickup, and as far as Ford goes the 5r110 (03+) combined with a vgt turbo extremely changes a pickup diesel and I believe why so many people love the 6.0 over the 7.3.
I Have heard many things but the common is roll back 20 years, they would just sell delete kits and tunes, oems would just have factory deleted engines, they are not going to make different engines then what they can do now.
Lots of people think smog and etc will come back, fuel injection gas engines and common rail diesels run so much better it would take a lot of people abusing black smoke for something like that to come back.
I also heard that 200k of a pickup diesel nox emissions is equal to 5 lightning strikes, so those def boxes are extremely way harder on the environment that an engine.
I'd just like to see something where you can't roll smoke or something