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Customer's decision hinges on tricky excavtion bid...

digger242j

Administrator
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
6,648
Location
Southwestern PA
Occupation
Self employed excavator
This is similar to DK's thread about customers asking for prices when they're not really sure of what they want. It's a different kind of question though, in that the customer knows what he wants--how big, and how deep, and exactly where. It's just that *I* don't know (and I know I don't know), how hard it's going to be to dig. An aging mother-in-law might be moving in with them soon. Whether he does the job at all, as opposed to selling his house and moving to somewhere bigger depends on the answer.

Here's the situation--The potential customer knows what he wants. He'd like a foundation for an addition where his backyard is now. It'll be 30' wide and reach 16' out from the back of the existing house. He'd like it to be a full basement. Here's the problem--The house sits 50' back from the street and is probably 15' higher than the street, so the trip to the backyard will be a constant struggle up and down the front lawn. There's no way a truck will get up and down there to get loaded, so it'll a long run with every bucketfull to reach the truck. There's only about 12' between his house and the neighbor's, so the neighbor will have to be very understanding about his lawn getting trashed in the process too.

It gets worse.

The back of the house has an existing concrete patio, and a retaining wall. The wall is at 14' from the house, so the excavation will extend 4' past the existing wall. The wall is about 4' high, but the ground slopes up beyond it, to a bench that's been cut into the hill about 7' above the level of the patio. In other words, by the time the addition is built, if there's a doorway in the second floor it won't be more than a few steps down onto that bench. There's rock showing back there already. It's shale where it's showing, but around here it can go from real easy digging the real hard digging in the space of a few feet. It can go from shale to blue limestone in a few feet. The retaining wall is a soldier wall--steel beams placed vertically, with timbers inserted between them. The guys who built the wall had to jackhammer to set the steel, and they only went 2' deep.

So, the problems with digging this foundation are obviously going to be the tight quarters, the long run down the hill to the truck, and the very high potential for rock that'll need to be hammered out. None of that is impossible to deal with, but with the rock there, only a clairvoyant will be able to tell how long it might take.

The real problem is that the go/no go decision hinges on the cost of the excavation. I guess he's got the rest of it budgeted out to a number he can live with, *if* he can afford to get the hole dug. He'd go with a crawl space if the full basement is impractical. Add to this problem the fact that I may be too busy otherwise to do the job, so whatever I think won't necessarily be the same thing that the excavator who actually gets the job will think. He's a friend of a builder that gave me five houses to dig last year, so I do feel a little pressure to not just blow him off.

I have a couple of thoughts about how to handle this problem but I'll keep them to myself for now. I'd like to hear what other ideas might come form the group here.

What would you guys do? What do you tell the customer?
 

mert0714

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Messages
64
Location
Eastern IA
You cannot blow off the guy, that will only hurt you later. Was this guy already made aware of the problems you listed? Can you check the site with a frost probe or possibly an auger bit on a skid loader? This would at least cover your first 4-6 feet unless you can get a bigger bit to go deeper. This would help a lot and then from there you should give the worst case bids so it covers you unless you are willing to compromise for future work from the builder that got you the job. You will have to clearly explain how much is unknown and then give an easy/hard bid for 4 and 8 foot (4 bids). You need to be covered and he needs to know you don't know. After all, either you want to do it or you don't. Is it cheaper to move? I don't think so. Maybe the owner needs to profile the yard for you?

As for the digging, maybe it would be chaeper to have a loader there to run the dirt to the truck. Sure it is two guys and 2 machines but it would go faster and end up being cheaper (I assume your loader/hr price is cheaper than your excavator/hr price. If not it is still faster). If that doesn't work out, maybe you can back the truck up the grade as far as you can to save 20 feet of travel. This way seems time consuming. Dump the dirt out front and load it. Grass is cheap and easy to fix compared to the price of time and labor to get around wrecking more grass especially throughout the whole project. Good luck.
 

DKinWA

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
210
Location
Western Washington
Occupation
Biologist and Contractor
This sounds like a good site for a couple of conveyors from the excavation area to the dump truck. I know contractors that have rented short conveyors for difficult areas and it worked really well. It sounds like a lot of hassle, but they can really save time if set up well. I've even seen contractors use them under a house that had to be hand dug to provide clearance to upgrade the foundation. With the conveyors, you could use a small excavator and really cut down on the damage to the lawn and possibly the neighbors nerves.

When it comes to rock, I don't have much experience. One thought is to bid the job as you typically would for dirt with a clause in your contract that rock is excavated on your hourly rate. With an excavator, you could switch back and forth between a bucket and hammer and probably move pretty quickly. Merts idea about probing the ground is a good one and may make the whole issue of excavating rock a mute point. Any chance you could get a backhoe in there and do a little probing?

Obviously you can't give the customer a firm bid, but the owner has to understand that excavating rock is much more difficult than dirt. Personally if the project is a go/no go based on the excavation cost, they probably can't really afford the project yet. Budgeting that tight is just asking for trouble and Murphy will surely visit some time during the project.
 

triaxle

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2005
Messages
61
Location
Cleveland, GA
Occupation
CEO Mid-sized Grading Company
Excavation Quandry

We all suffer from customers who are uncertain about what they want. Since they are confused, they often discuss several differnet jobs and get bids which are not about the same work.

One thing to consider is that if the problems seem big, it is possible that you are not equipped to deal with the job. It is important to try to continue to service your accounts but breaking a machine or appearing foolish will not enhance the relationship.

I can give you my approach in this situation and hopefully it will help. Since we all have different toys, I apoligise if this is impractical.

I would place a 320 on the site to dig the basement and load the trucks without having to back them up the hill. This will also minimize the amount of dirt tracked onto the road by the dump trucks. The 320 will be able to handle any rock that you encounter until it meets the legal definition of unmanageable rock.
When the hoe doesn't work any more, it's time to call a blaster so you need a rock clause that says that unmanageable rock shall be dealt with as a change or add order and the blasting and removal of the rock is the builders expense.
We charge $75 per cubic yard to blast and remove rock in bulk and smaller stuff is pre-bid on the proposal.

By now you have noticed that the potential for expense is significant. On commercial sites, borings are done and it is possible to create sophisticated sub-grade topo maps of your rock. Obviously one of the things that seperates commercial from residential is a budget to do the borings. I have seen some people use 3" hand augers and some of those power augers to check for rock when there is no budget.

I think it is likely that some sort of a compromise during the dig may be appropriate. If a full basement won't work, how about a half basement? Most rock follows the hill contour making some basement possible even if a full basement is not. Pole and beam support like N. California may also make the site work.

I have noticed that these "I really need your help on this one" type jobs are often the ones I wish I had passed on or never heard of.
The first ten years I did grading and hauling, I tried to do everything I was offered. The next twenty years I have tried to pick the jobs that are best for me and to avoid the no budget jobs. This approach has contributed to our profitability.
If the site seems problematic, it is likely to be.

Usually, being told that the feasability of a job is dependent on your bid is a line designed to make you bid low just like the guy who wants you to do something for nothing so he promises you 50 house sites, next year.

Good Luck
 
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