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D6C Steering Clutches not completely releasing

Metalman 55

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20140818_142124.jpg

On our 10K D6C, I believe a while back I posted a problem with the steering clutches not releasing completely & we finally got around to checking the pressures today & here is what we found; on the valve body that in the picture is located just below the fill tube for the transmission, (I marked the plug with white), the pressure reads 250 psi & then at the check plug is where the gauge is hooked, that one reads 250 psi as well for the left steering clutch. The plug going to the right steering clutch reads the same. It reads about the same at a fast idle as when it is running at full speed. Any idea what the pressure should read there?

Once the machine is really warmed up, the steering clutches drag on just a bit, but when cold it is much worse.

Metalman.
 

D6c10K

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Metalman 55

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Ok thanks. Can I get some clarification on a couple of items, as the one pdf was hard to see the details on? In order to get the pressure up to 275 psi, where is the location to set the pressure up, if it can be done? Maybe the one pdf did show it but had trouble reading it. I wonder with the steering clutches dragging a bit if that is not something to worry too much about, seeing that we only put 150 hrs. on the machine annually? When the tractor is warmed up, with both clutches pulled back & just creeps ahead slightly, however when cold it seems as though 40% power is going to both tracks.
 

D6c10K

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Can't seem to find an illustration in the book anywhere. In the first scan (pg. 35) the diagram shows it as #6....Located in the pressure line between the oil filter and the steering clutch valve, but where exactly I'm not sure.
Looked at online parts store and the 7s1993 for the relief valve is still a good number but couldn't find a diagram there either.

Hopefully someone else knows where to look.

If I remember my pressure was in the ok range, but if you tweak yours toward the upper limit and it helps, I might try the same thing.
 
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Old Magnet

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Your not looking at the right specs. The 7S1993 relief valve is for the earlier D6's with direct drive.
Check the hydraulic pump pressure. Should be 310psi +/- 10 psi. Same pressure at the steering clutch test ports. Minimum is 275psi. Relief valve is set for 350psi max and you should not have to fool with that. If your not making pressure either the pump is weak or you have leakage at the steering clutches.
 

Metalman 55

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Your not looking at the right specs. The 7S1993 relief valve is for the earlier D6's with direct drive.
Check the hydraulic pump pressure. Should be 310psi +/- 10 psi. Same pressure at the steering clutch test ports. Minimum is 275psi. Relief valve is set for 350psi max and you should not have to fool with that. If your not making pressure either the pump is weak or you have leakage at the steering clutches.

Both steering clutch ports tested out at 250 psi. Exactly where is the pump located? Likely there is a test port on the output side of it?
 

D6c10K

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My Bad...

Your not looking at the right specs. The 7S1993 relief valve is for the earlier D6's with direct drive.
Check the hydraulic pump pressure. Should be 310psi +/- 10 psi. Same pressure at the steering clutch test ports. Minimum is 275psi. Relief valve is set for 350psi max and you should not have to fool with that. If your not making pressure either the pump is weak or you have leakage at the steering clutches.

You are correct....I was looking at the wrong pages. Here's specs for powershift.


View attachment Scan_Doc0005.pdf

View attachment Scan_Doc0006.pdf

Looks like pump pressure (checked at port on filter housing) is min. 315 psi and max 350 psi....controlled by the sequence relief valve.
Steering clutch pistons: (checked at locations H & J) 315 psi min...no max listed...suppose it would be same as max pump pressure.

Makes me wonder what spec I was using when I checked my pressures...
 
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Old Magnet

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Need to correct myself, pump location is on LH side, sorry about that. You can see the test port on top of the filter and there is also one on the pump .

Specs vary according to s/n. Pressures are higher with later units.

Steering clutch pressure is controlled by the pressure control valve not sequence relief valve
 
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Metalman 55

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Need to correct myself, pump location is on LH side, sorry about that. You can see the test port on top of the filter and there is also one on the pump .

Specs vary according to s/n. Pressures are higher with later units.

Steering clutch pressure is controlled by the pressure control valve not sequence relief valve

Is the transmission pump located under the hyd pump, forward of the flywheel housing on the same side as the trans filter?
 

Metalman 55

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Input Tapp.jpgLow Idle.jpgFast Idle.jpg



Ok, we are getting back on this steering clutch issue again on the D6C 10K 6516, where they are not releasing completely, especially when oil is cold (95% better when warmed up) & here is what we are getting for current readings.

On the centre pressure tapp, the one located over the bevel gear compartment (see pic) with the steering clutches pulled back we get approx. 290 lbs at low idle & about 305 lbs. at fast idle.

The tapps going to both steering clutches give the same readings, a little low according chart that member D6C 10K posted last summer which suggests a necessary pressure of 315, so not far off the mark.

The pressure tapp on the filter housing gave readings of about 310 lbs at low idle & 375 at high idle. I see now on the sheet posted that it says the gear selector is to be place in neutral when checking this pressure on the filter housing....... I forget how we did that test...it may have been in gear with the steering clutches pulled. Will this make much difference?

Oil was cold when we took these reading today.
 

D6c10K

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If it's like my 10K you'll get significantly lower pressures with warm oil, especially back at the steering clutches. I couldn't make much sense of the readings I was getting on mine until I was able to get it inside a heated shop and run it until pretty well warmed up (25-30 minutes) and hook gauges to all test ports.

I've been fighting the same problem with mine, working on it on/off most of the winter. Been checking pressures at all the test ports (I think there are 10-12 check ports)

My biggest problem was leakage at the steering clutch seals. If I blocked off the tubes back on the bevel gear case I got decent pressure (still a little below spec.), but with the tubes open to the clutches I was losing nearly 100 psi when the clutches were released. I pulled it all down and replaced not only the seals, but the bearing cages and hubs to be sure I had everything good. Before I put it all back together I test ran it with the covers off the bevel gear case to see what the pressures did......gained maybe 25 psi and was still gushing oil through the clutch seals.

The problem with mine came down to the seals (genuine Cat).....They are a split ring seal and they leave about an 1/8" end gap on the ring which allows a lot of oil to leak through. That might be ok for a new tractor, but for a 40 year old machine with wear everywhere in the hydraulic system, it just couldn't maintain pressure.
I thought about it for quite a while and finally decided to make my own seals. I bought a sheet of Teflon (PTFE) material and turned out seal rings on my lathe and milled them to thickness to match the Cat seals. I left the seals full circle, which makes them a little tougher to assemble, but I was going for no leakage. I probably could have split them and just fitted them with a close end gap and it would have been just fine.

I rented the hydraulic puller for a 2nd time ($125 each time) and installed the homemade seals. This time when I checked it there was no visible leakage and my clutch pressure will come up to the same reading I'm getting at the steering clutch valve. At least now any low pressure reading I'm getting aren't related to the clutches and just today I've pretty well got it all back together.

As I said, my pressure at the steering clutch valve is still a little below spec, especially at low idle, but I can chase that problem without having a major tear-down. My trans pump is in good condition and I have good pressure at the sequence valve.
I've got two things that still may be losing pressure......The steering clutch by pass for lubing the bevel gear bearings seem to flow an excessive amount. (If you remove the rear cover plate you can see the amount it's flowing)
The 2nd possibility it the transmission relief valve.....it's bypassing quite a bit oil when the engine is warm. Talked to the Tech at Cat and a couple of the mechanics but couldn't get a definite answer about what's normal.

Her's what my clutch leakage looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArhkfCFQlGU

Here's the bypass at the trans relief valve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ScFPuHgh4U

Here's the view through the back cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j475kwoWYQM
The stream that's up by the trans pto shaft is the lube bypass
The stream nearer the camera is the port that dumps oil from the clutches back to the sump. (notice it flows some all the time)

Anyway, I don't know if any of this helps but at least you might compare what I'm seeing with what you see on your tractor. I'd be especially curious to know how your trans relief valve and steering clutch valve compare to what my videos show.
Hope you have an easier time getting your's figured out......mine has turned into a "quest" to get it sorted, but I think I've got it to the point where it's "ok" for now at least.
 

Metalman 55

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Bevel Gear.jpg
If it's like my 10K you'll get significantly lower pressures with warm oil, especially back at the steering clutches. I couldn't make much sense of the readings I was getting on mine until I was able to get it inside a heated shop and run it until pretty well warmed up (25-30 minutes) and hook gauges to all test ports.

I've been fighting the same problem with mine, working on it on/off most of the winter. Been checking pressures at all the test ports (I think there are 10-12 check ports)

My biggest problem was leakage at the steering clutch seals. If I blocked off the tubes back on the bevel gear case I got decent pressure (still a little below spec.), but with the tubes open to the clutches I was losing nearly 100 psi when the clutches were released. I pulled it all down and replaced not only the seals, but the bearing cages and hubs to be sure I had everything good. Before I put it all back together I test ran it with the covers off the bevel gear case to see what the pressures did......gained maybe 25 psi and was still gushing oil through the clutch seals.

The problem with mine came down to the seals (genuine Cat).....They are a split ring seal and they leave about an 1/8" end gap on the ring which allows a lot of oil to leak through. That might be ok for a new tractor, but for a 40 year old machine with wear everywhere in the hydraulic system, it just couldn't maintain pressure.
I thought about it for quite a while and finally decided to make my own seals. I bought a sheet of Teflon (PTFE) material and turned out seal rings on my lathe and milled them to thickness to match the Cat seals. I left the seals full circle, which makes them a little tougher to assemble, but I was going for no leakage. I probably could have split them and just fitted them with a close end gap and it would have been just fine.

I rented the hydraulic puller for a 2nd time ($125 each time) and installed the homemade seals. This time when I checked it there was no visible leakage and my clutch pressure will come up to the same reading I'm getting at the steering clutch valve. At least now any low pressure reading I'm getting aren't related to the clutches and just today I've pretty well got it all back together.

As I said, my pressure at the steering clutch valve is still a little below spec, especially at low idle, but I can chase that problem without having a major tear-down. My trans pump is in good condition and I have good pressure at the sequence valve.
I've got two things that still may be losing pressure......The steering clutch by pass for lubing the bevel gear bearings seem to flow an excessive amount. (If you remove the rear cover plate you can see the amount it's flowing)
The 2nd possibility it the transmission relief valve.....it's bypassing quite a bit oil when the engine is warm. Talked to the Tech at Cat and a couple of the mechanics but couldn't get a definite answer about what's normal.

Her's what my clutch leakage looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArhkfCFQlGU

Here's the bypass at the trans relief valve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ScFPuHgh4U

Here's the view through the back cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j475kwoWYQM
The stream that's up by the trans pto shaft is the lube bypass
The stream nearer the camera is the port that dumps oil from the clutches back to the sump. (notice it flows some all the time)

Anyway, I don't know if any of this helps but at least you might compare what I'm seeing with what you see on your tractor. I'd be especially curious to know how your trans relief valve and steering clutch valve compare to what my videos show.
Hope you have an easier time getting your's figured out......mine has turned into a "quest" to get it sorted, but I think I've got it to the point where it's "ok" for now at least.

We removed the rear cover plate on our D6 today & the oil bypassing & running down under the steering clutch valve appears to be somewhat less than your video was showing. Some did flow all the time however, but a smaller stream than yours. More would pour out momentarily, when the levers were returned in. Also the constant stream to the pto shaft seemed to be less volume then yours too.

Did you have any trouble getting parts from Cat?

Not sure if this means much, but we travelled the machine back & forth with the back cover off & did not observe any shifting or slop in the bevel gear & shaft....all looked tight. Pried on it various ways & seemed real tight that way to.

We will be working on ours outside, so will wait for the temps to moderated a bit before tearing things apart.

Thanks for the information.
 

D6c10K

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Interesting to hear that your oil flow is less.....but if you're outside the oil is likely colder too. Also your lube line arrangement is a little different than mine.

No problem getting parts from Cat but I bought aftermarket bearing cages and hubs....MUCH less expensive. Cat's prices are about 5 times higher.....more than I could afford.
I didn't end up using the new hubs once I found out I just had a seal problem so I'll have them available if you should find yours are bad. (have the genuine CAT hub seals too that I didn't use)

Before you tear it apart I'd block off the clutch tubes at the bevel gear case. (I made some blocks out of 16 ga. sheet metal) Run it long enough to get it good and warm and check pressures to the clutches.
Then remove your blocks and check pressures again to see what the difference is.
 

Metalman 55

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Clutch1.jpgClutch.jpg]134762[/attach]

The weather finally has warmed up here so we got started on pulling the steering clutch/brake assemblies apart today on the D6C, removing the RH side first. The seal on the clutch piston was still intact & it looks like there would be about 1/8 to 3/16 end gap when installed. One thing I noticed was there is about 1/16" play up & down on the hub shown in the one picture where the clutch assembly bolts up on the outside, which heads out to the final drives...... I wonder if this means trouble? Oil does migrate out to the finals from here & they always run over full. Nothing else looks real bad but we will pull the clutch pack apart tomorrow & see what we find there. The main hub with the inner spline (see picture) has some noticeable wear where the clutch splines slide, being a bit wavy......not sure how much is ok?
 

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Scrub Puller

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Yair . . . Metalman 55

One thing I noticed was there is about 1/16" play up & down on the hub shown in the one picture where the clutch assembly bolts up on the outside, which heads out to the final drives...... I wonder if this means trouble.

If the machine is a keeper I believe you would ignore this at your peril. The hub is either loose on the top pinion or the pinion bearings are on the way out. Either way it needs looking into or it could get very expensive . . . if its bearings and you catch it now the gear may still be okay.

You also need to check the cross shaft bearings. Sadly, (in my experience) lifting the lid on the back end of a tractor very often results in a can of worms.

All the best with it.

Cheers.
 

Metalman 55

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Clutch Disc.jpgClutch Hub.jpgHub Grooves.jpgHub.jpg

We got a little deeper into it today, have the left side apart now as well. Note the notches in the inner spline of the outer hub that the clutch discs slide in, not real deep (maybe a little over 1/64") but sort of jagged. Also the inner part of the other hub that the inside of the clutch discs slide against is grooved as well. Clutch discs seem intact, no loose pieces coming off, maybe about 1/64" left to the bottom of the grooves on the clutch fibre. Maybe all clutch discs should be replaced if there is only that much left? Is there any point in trying to smooth up the inside of the spline of the outer hub, thinking that by doing so it may allow better travel of the clutch fingers without "hanging up" on the lumps n bumps. The outer part of the hubs where the brakes make contact looks real good.

We plan to look into the pinion shaft slop next, going out to the final drives next. It may spell trouble, with both sides moving up & down about 1/16". Maybe this will be the "can of worms"?
 

Scrub Puller

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Yair . . .

Metalman55 Nothing I see there looks too extreme, it can never hurt to smooth rough edges.

I don't know if I'm thinking Cat or Allis but the clutch is sometimes judged by the stack height of the assembled plates. There will be minimum value thickness for individual frictions . . . in other words if the individual discs are within spec. you can adjust the stack height with an extra disk.

Don't let me lead you astray here, there are folks on here a lot more knowledgeable than I and it has been along time since I had anything apart.

Cheers.
 
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