hauling dirt with articulated trucks vs double pans

[Ray (ecks)]

Hi folks. I'm new to the board, the site was recommended by someone at New Ag Talk. We farm and my son is in the dirt business. Basically small stuff from construction standards, 15 yard scraper, PC150 Komatsu hoe, 700H, a 287B and a 1/4 frame half round trailer running most days. He started from scratch when he was a junior in high school and is 20 now. He gets a lot of jobs that the big guys don't want to mess with, but it keeps him busy.

We have a chance to get a foot in the door removing overburden. It would be all loamy sand to pure sand. 20 to 24' deep across 12 to 15 acres per year, approx 450,000 yards per year. The current operation uses a big hoe and 3 articulated trucks to move it, a D6R to landscape it and a maintainer to keep the haul road smooth. Total distance will vary, but the average will be about 1500 ft.

We've never had any experience with articulated trucks and wonder if 3 tractors pulling double pans would be a better way to go. Our thought is they could load themselves most of the time, do a decent job of taking care of their own haul road and rough out the landscaping as they dump the dirt, basically eliminating the need for the D6 and an extra man. Even when they got to the point they couldn't load themselves you could load them with a hoe and they could still do a good job of landscaping the dirt as they unloaded.

It's been pointed out to us that a plus for the trucks is you don't need as skilled an operator to dump dirt vs the operator you would need in the pans.

Does anyone have any experience that would compare the two methods, cost of operation or any advice.

Thanks in advance,
Ray

 

[farm_boy]

Ray:

First of all I want to say :notworthy to your son. It sounds like he has been pretty successful in the short amount of time that he has been moving dirt. Way to go!!:thumbsup

You are quite right in thinking you can move dirt cheaper with pull pans and a four wheel drive tractor. In fact, in the correct conditions you can move the same amount of dirt for $.30-$.50 per yard cheaper than ADT's or motorized open bowl scrapers. You save a half to a third of the labor costs and you only have one power unit using fuel. I preface this in that you have to be in the correct conditions. The reason for this is that the scraper system is not the right set up for every condition, and if placed in the wrong application you could find yourself doing this :Banghead !!!

These systems work the best in "good dirt", meaning anything from sandy loam to clay. The "perfect" soil is something right in the middle of these two, keeping in mind these would be the two out lying soils that will work. If you have lots of big rocks....forget it. If you have a ton of pure sand....not so good. Now with that being said its not that this system won't work in sand, its just that you won't be as productive in self loading since you will only be able to get a struck load versus the SAE heaped load that a scraper is rated for. This of course doesn't mean that you can't top load them with an excavator in which case this last point won't make any difference.

My next question would be how long you have to get the material moved. Do you have all year to move 450K yards or do you have a small window to get it done? If you have all year and only have 450,000 yds to move I think three trains (3 tractors and 6 pans) would be overkill. With the average hall distance being relatively short (1,500 ft), you should be able to easily move 5,000 yds per 10 hour day using 18 cu yd pans. Working 5 days per week, you could have this job done in a little over 4 months....with one tractor and two pans.

In regards to your concerns about a skilled operator in a tractor versus an ADT, this is very valid. John Deere recently introduced a system that no else has to eleiviate this concern and allow "green" operators to become productive very quickly. Deere's Auto Load system automatically takes over the loading function from the operator. This allows a lot smoother cut, prevents the operator from stalling the tractor and makes it easier to maintain a consistant fill area.

Here is a link to Deere's web site that explains in a little more detail:
http://salesmanual.deere.com/sales/salesmanual/en_NA/tractors/2007/feature/electrical_and_lights/9020/9020_s-tractors_autoload_pa.html

Since the Auto Load system only works with Deere pans, you have to consider what kind you need. Deere makes both a carry all and ejector pan. If you are wanting to eliminate the need for a dozer as much as possible, the ejector would be the way to go. Since the cutting edge is fixed while you are unloading it allows the best (and easiest) consistency of your fill material. It also allows you to clean and grade your haul road easier, thus removing the need for a grader.

Like I said this isn't the absolute end all - be all to moving dirt, but if you have the right conditions there is no other way to move dirt on the cheap. From the sounds of your job, it would appear that one of these systems with Auto Load would work pretty well.

Hope this helps.:wink2

Farm_boy

 

[Ray (ecks)]

Thanks for the note

You are right in a lot of the things you say that we have some experience with. The dirt is too sandy to heap up, based on the work we've done with our 15 yard Torque scraper. I'm not sure how to describe it, but I would call it a loamy sand. Most of it will have some moisture in it because of a very high water table in the area.

The project will go on continuous for some time, probably in the neighborhood of 10 to 12 years. The company is telling us they expect to use from12 to 15 acres per year and it will be a gradual process. We would only be limited by the days when it's too wet or there is frost in the dirt.

I'll have to check out the Deere site tomorrow. We do have a good Deere dealer here. That's why he bought the 700H. Demo'd a 230 last week, but just can't figure out how to make the cash flow.

There will be no rocks on this job. We've dug about 15' deep before with our Torque in the same area, but don't know what we'll hit the last few feet. We just felt with the pans we could always fall back and load them with a hoe if needed and we'd still be able to benefit from their ability to shape the dump site without keeping a dozer there all the time.

Thanks again,
Ray

 

[Squizzy246B]

I would reckon that Farm Boy has got the scraper thing right but I don't have enough experience with them to comment. However, I would say that: just because one mob does something one way doesn't mean there is not another way to do it...there are no right ways only wrong ways. The other thing is that although you may get away without the Dozer and full time operator; it sounds to me like you could use an old loader on site. The loader can look after the haul road, it can level the site, it can load trucks or pan scapers it you can't operate them in some areas...and it can be the site JOT (Jack of all Trades).

Now I would say that cause I love loaders but you wouldn't need a full time operator, most drivers/operators have some loader experience, they make good cranes/jacks when you break something or blow tyres and they are a damn site faster than a dozer at getting around the site.

If it was working out then you could use the loader to increase production. Best of all you don't need anything flash..an old 950 or 966 would do the trick...just needs to be mechanically sound...doesn't even need good rubber on sand. We have actually dry hired an old 980 that is a spare/backup machine at one of our quarries and only paid on the hour meter...which was one of the few things that still worked in the "cab" . It has worked real well for us when we have had to shift large amounts of material short distances.

 

[Tigerotor77W]

Out of curiosity... is it true that it's also possible to use regular, self-powered scrapers at a lower cost per ton than the ADT-excavator or pull pans method? (In the right situations -- which are?)

 

[farm_boy]

Out of curiosity... is it true that it's also possible to use regular, self-powered scrapers at a lower cost per ton than the ADT-excavator or pull pans method? (In the right situations -- which are?)

First thing to note Tiger is that when you talk dirt moving, you almost always talk $/yd instead of $/ton. The aggregate business is a little different (sand and gravel operations) in which case those boys are into cost per ton.

Don't get me wrong. There are cheaper ways to move dirt, but like I said the conditions have to be right for it.

Circumstances that will a scraper tractor and pans wouldn't be the best options would be:

• Extremely rocky conditions
• Longer haul distances -- >5000-6000 ft
• Extremely muddy conditions
• Extreme elevation changes
• Lots of pure sand
• Confined spaces (short loading area)

All of these conditions don't lend themselves well to scraper tractors and pans. There are several ways to move dirt and knowing the application and which system matches up well will allow it to be moved at the lowest $/yd figure.

In "good dirt" you can not touch the cost per yard of a scraper tractor and pans, even when compared to a scraper like a 627/637.

 

[Tigerotor77W]

Thanks for the clarification and :nono situations.

Are there still circumstances where a 627 or other self-propelled scraper will outproduce a tractor + pans (9520+Miskin)?

 

[farm_boy]

Tiger,

The situations above are the ones that a self propelled scraper will perform better.

• Lots of rock
• long haul distances
• lots of mud
• confined spaces for short loading distances

These are where a 627 would be better than a scraper tractor. Like I say though....in "good dirt" you can not beat the scraper system. Period.:thumbsup

 

[Mass-X]

Tiger: Are there still circumstances where a 627 or other self-propelled scraper will outproduce a tractor + pans (9520+Miskin)?"

Around here there sure are. Talking to the local John Deere dealer, three local excavation companies have purchased 9000 series tractors and pull-pans with high hopes of being able to move dirt at the purported $0.50/yd cheaper than other systems.

Two of those companies have gone out of business, and the last is planning to sell there single remaining unit at the end of it's current project.

Around here, the areas with soft dirt (in the lower parts of valleys) have already been developed. The majority of the remaining development is moving into the mountains and pull-pans are a joke in these conditions.

In most of the rocky or shot rock conditions I've worked in, you need a D9 to push 621's, while a D10 is better. And a D10 or D11 is required for 631's.

The twin engine scrapers work well in tandem when working in rocky material, but in shot rock it's best to run them single and push with a big dozer.

Depending on the quality of the haul roads on these jobs, self-propelled scrapers will outproduce ADT's with haul distances <2000'.

The other big benefit to self-propelled scrapers is there ability to cut slopes. When working in the mountains, you're always cutting a 2:1 or 3:1 out of a mountainside and building up a fill on the low side for residential/commercial developments.

In these situations scrapers will outperform ADT's because they can dive off the top of the slope and begin cutting the slope right at the catch point and tune the sub-grade as they go.

Twin engines often have enough weight to self-load even in rocky material when cutting a 2:1.

In these situations the grader only needs to mantain the haul road to the top of the slope and then from the bottom to the fill.

With ADT's, you have to terrace the cut to provide haul-road access (more dozer/blade time involved) which ends up taking up more time and requiring more support equipment.

When building roads through mountainous areas self-propelled scrapers far outproduce ADT's.

The scrapers can dive into a cut (a ridge), then move down into the fill (in a canyon), then climb back up the hill into the next cut and work the cuts/fills without needing to turn around after each one.

In these situations you're only limited by the number of compactors you have to work on each fill, or the number of push-dozers you have if you're running single engines.

This set-up can build roads even with big 60-90' cuts/fills faster than any other system.

Sorry to hi-jack the post, but I've followed the growth of pull-pans very closely over the last few years and after numerous experiences working with them side by side with self-propelled scrapers and ADT's; in most situations I'll still take my self-propelled scrapers over all else. The ADT's definitely have their place, but there's simply no market for pull-pans around here.

 

[JimBruce42]

The company I work for has all but replaced the 627's with 9520+1810e pull pans and MassEX/ADTs. The thought with the pull pans was lower operating cost, the thing is that in PA they are really only good at stripping topsoils cost effectively, after that our dirt crews wtih the hoes and trucks almost always take over, even in some cases were 1 or 2 627's would probably have been just as good. As farm-boy said, right conditions and the pans should do the trick, I know that our JD's preform a lot better in the central to lower parts of Delaware than they do up here for cut to fills, but again the conditions are better.

As long as you aren't flossing between rocks in your last lifts, it sounds like the pans would work best for you, but I'm still new so what do I know:wink2

 

[Mass-X]

One thing I forgot to mention earlier. As a general rule, if you can walk into the cut after the first pass, easily scoop up a hand full of dirt and make a fist of the material and have it hold itself together after you let go, than you can probably get pull-pans through it successfully.

If it's too dry or too rocky and it crumbles/sifts through your fingers after opening your fist, than pull-pans probably aren't a good idea. In the right material pull-pans are second to none, but they are very dependent on the type of material they're working in.

 

[CM1995]

I have another idea about the pull pans VS artic/trackhoe combo. We have 2 artics that we use to move dirt and can move upwards of 3k yards a day. Our soil conditions can change not only across the area but across a typical 30 acre jobsite. You might have 4' of topsoil, sticky clay, sandstone, limestone, chert, shale or if you are lucky good sandy soil. I like the artic because it is more versatile than a scraper. We use the artic to haul brush, topsoil, mud, pipe, bedding gravel (it makes a nice mobile gravel box - although it is a lot of $$ for a gravel box ) as well as mass excavation.

With that said, we are currently on a job that has approx. 500K CY to move over 75+/- acres. In our area we have pull pan subcontractors that we are probably going to hire in to move dirt in conjuction with our artic/trackhoe combo. I think this will be very effective for us because we can gain production without another capital investment in more equipment.

I hope this adds another dimension to the discussion.