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Hydrualic oil life?

Speedpup

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I know the manual for my telehandlers (1985-92 Lulls) say hydualic oil should be changed every 1000 hr. but I never did it, not even close. I do watch the filters in the hydrualic tank. :crying :eek: I guess I could get it tested like engine oil. What are you changing it at and what types of machines? I guess it gets sheared up and loses additives?
 
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OCR

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Hydraulic oil life?

I guess it gets sheared up and loses additives?
I think that is pretty much right... along with getting contaminated... dirt...
water... machine component wear particles.

On some of my equipment... it changes atomatically... every time a hose breaks... LOL

I guess that's really not funny... :eek:


OCR... :)
 

DPete

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On some of my equipment... it changes atomatically... every time a hose breaks... LOL

I guess that's really not funny... :eek:


OCR... :)
Ha, I thought my equipment had the only self changing oil :falldownlaugh
 

Squizzy246B

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My mini-ex calls for Hyd oil changes at 750 hrs. For some reason I was convinced (having read the book {obviously not properly:(}) that the service interval was 1000 hrs. The first time we changed it we had a really noticeable improvement in performance.....it was like new. From then on we have changed on the dot (750hrs) and each time we get that, not really significant, but noticeable improvement in response, speed and digging performance. I wont let it go to 1000 hrs again thats for sure.

This suggests to me that either the machine is one of those that is really hard on the hyd fluid or its plain crap oil that that the dealer supplies.

I'm going to try Castrol next time to see how that goes.

On the previous machine (Kubota KX 161-3) we never really noticed any performance difference after changing the hyd fluid.

Change your hyd oil and see how it performs.....you may be surprised. Checking out the suction strainer is (apart from oil analysis) really the only way to see if you have contamination....and messing up your hydraulic system for want of an oil change could be a case of penny wise and pound foolish. JMHO. That said, I know of plenty of machines that I'm sure the owners wouldn't even know how to change the fluid let alone when. Some machines seem to be a lot harder on the hyd oil than others:beatsme
 

Turbo21835

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Ha, I thought my equipment had the only self changing oil :falldownlaugh

I thought this feature was invented by the demolition industry. Shear machines in particular. The constant cycle is tough on hoses. If your lucky, you have a machine that has the self cleaning feature when it comes to a broken hose. This is a HOT turbo charger with that HOT oil sprayed on it :cool2
 

tripletree

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oil samples

Depending on the age of the equipment, we change at 2000 hours older equipment is done at 1000 hrs. We follow what the operator manual calls for as a rule. Some newer equipment is even going longer have not decided what we will done on these as we are no where near the first oil change. We do sample every 500 hours no matter what. We follow what the samples tell us what to do. most often if we have a problem we are told to monitor the compartment. Then we re-sample at 250 hours. We also have a filter cart that we run on the fluid on. With a resample after the filtering. Not sure if this is the best way but we have had very few failures.
 

John C.

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I've had customers for years that never changed hydraulic oil until something failed. How often to change hydraulic oil depends more on the kind of machine, type of pumping system, operational cycle, climate the machine is being operated in and the type of oil you are using.

A wheel loader using a gear or vane pump and large pilot or manual operated spool valves can take more contamination than an excavator with a complicated load sensing hydraulic system with piston pumps, a spider web of pilot lines and multiple types of control valves.

By the same token that wheel loader, although having a similar hydraulic system to the telehandlers, is usually operated constantly and achieves a high enough temperature in the hydraulic oil to drive out water. In other words you change the oil in the Lull more often because it doesn't run as much and is subject to drawing water vapor into the reservoir that contaminates the oil.

The oil additives in hydraulic oil as a general rule are anti foaming agents. The package is not used up except under certain situations. The oil also does not wear out either unless there is a certain situation. That situation is overheating. The oil will change state when heated above a certain temperture. Wheel loaders usually have plenty of reserve cooling capacity for the hydraulic oil. Most telehandlers that I have been around didn't even have a hydraulic oil cooler. Hydraulic excavators you would think would have plenty of cooling capacity but actually are right on the edge of being able to handle the job when the machine is operating in maximum load condition with no extra implements. Install a mower or grinder and you are running on the down hill side of your cooling capacity. The other usual scenario is to dust plug your hydraulic oil cooler by ten percent and overheated hydraulic oil will cook out the seals in the cylinders, inside liners in the hoses and turn rubber oil rings into flat washers.

Squizzy, I am perplexed by your machine losing performance by running the oil change interval over the recommended period. What make of machine are you running?
 

Speedpup

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Thank you John C. I also found some good reading here http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical7.html

I know my owners manual for the Lull spec's Amoco Rykon MV but I never see that in a spec when I buy oil. I was using Valvoline but now I think most places are selling the brands I never heard of:mad: May be i should go the the CAT dealer or John Deere dealer when I dump some of these machines? Guess I am due.

hydraulic :Banghead :pointhead
 
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Squizzy246B

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A wheel loader using a gear or vane pump and large pilot or manual operated spool valves can take more contamination than an excavator with a complicated load sensing hydraulic system with piston pumps, a spider web of pilot lines and multiple types of control valves.


Squizzy, I am perplexed by your machine losing performance by running the oil change interval over the recommended period. What make of machine are you running?

John, Its a Yanmar Vio 27-3. If you didn't change the oil you probably wouldn't miss the performance. The first change, when we went to 1000hrs, was the most noticeable, and its worth bearing in mind that was the oil the machine was delivered with. Subsequent 2 changes at 750 hrs are still noticeable to myself and my No 1 operator but is much less significant.

My dealer supplies this oil: (RENOLIN B HVI)

http://www.fuchs.com.au/categories.asp?cID=14

The new oil is a clear blue colour. After 750hrs its just slightly off colour (more greyish) and "feels" different. On filter paper it shows no contaminants and no metal was found last analysis.

I think some of these compact machines are pretty hard on the oil and maybe what I am using is not the best quality. In our case we are often operating in temps well over the old 100 deg F, which I think is a contributing factor.
 

John C.

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Those ambient temps I'm sure are hard on the system by themselves. I'm not familiar with the Yanmar systems so can't make an intelligent comment on its cooling capacity. It does sound kind of suspect. I'm sure your oil supplier knows about the operating temps in your region and can recommend an oil that will stand up better to the higher temps if you desire in the future. I do agree with you on the smaller machines being a little tougher on everything.

If you have an infrared thermometer you could check the temperature of the hydraulic tank when the machine is at its hottest. I also usually check the inlet and outlet of the hydraulic cooler for the difference. A good working cooler usually runs 15 to 30 degrees difference. Ten degrees or less and I'm blowing out the fins with lots of air pressure. If I still have the problem I'm looking for contamination in the return filter and doing a sample on the oil.

The give away on heat for me when checking machines is leaking rod packing on mulitple cylinders and hoses bleeding oil through the outside covers.

Thanks for your experience on your machine.
 

Squizzy246B

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John, everything is very much as new...no leaks whatsoever.

I guess back to the subject at hand....the point I was making is that slight deterioration of the oil will pass un-noticed. And on the other hand, many machines exceed the specified service interval without any measurable deterioration of the oil or performance.

For a compact machine my change is not an insignificant cost (the filter cost about $80 Aud).....I'd like to get 1000hrs out of that......but I guess some Yanmar engineer somewhere (who is a whole lot smarter than me:eek:) made a service interval based on good engineering practice.
 

australian pete

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John, everything is very much as new...no leaks whatsoever.

I guess back to the subject at hand....the point I was making is that slight deterioration of the oil will pass un-noticed. And on the other hand, many machines exceed the specified service interval without any measurable deterioration of the oil or performance.

For a compact machine my change is not an insignificant cost (the filter cost about $80 Aud).....I'd like to get 1000hrs out of that......but I guess some Yanmar engineer somewhere (who is a whole lot smarter than me:eek:) made a service interval based on good engineering practice.
hi squizzy, you should try gulf western harvester hydraulic oil, it was developed for sugar cane harvesters working in high temperatures in northern queensland, a high quality hydraulic oil, there is a distribitor in malaga, you can find details on, www.gulfwestern.com.au.
 

Squizzy246B

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hi squizzy, you should try gulf western harvester hydraulic oil, it was developed for sugar cane harvesters working in high temperatures in northern queensland, a high quality hydraulic oil, there is a distribitor in malaga, you can find details on, www.gulfwestern.com.au.

Thanks AP: I looked up the site and entered my machine details. They recommend a 46w oil (SUPERDRAULIC 46). Yanmar publishes ISO VG46 as the spec for the machine and the Superdraulic meets this VI. The dealer recommends 68w. I am currently running 68w. No if you put a heavier mineral oil in a machine it will respond better when its not too cold...but, the heavier oil will supposedly maintain viscosity at higher temps. There is also the school of thought that lighter oil will give up heat faster......:beatsme. Tell you what....we have effectively trashed this thread:eek: but I'll chuck the Gulf Western 46w in and see what happens......its gunna take two changes to flush it through...thats 40 x 20 litre drums:(.....Just for you Pete:rolleyes:
 

CEwriter

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I'm not an equipment manager, but I've spent 20 years talking with equipment managers about how they maintain equipment, and with equipment manufacturers about how they design hydraulic systems and with lubricant marketers about what they expect from hydraulic oil.

It seems to me you have two choices on how to maintain hydrualics:

1) Use regular oil analysis (that includes particle count and spectrographic analysis -- like they use on engine oil -- as well as some measures of viscosity and water content) to decide when to change oil. Primarily, you want to know if the oil is clean enough to protect your valves and seals, if it's being overheated, and if there is any water in it. Use that information to decide how the oil should be filtered and when, or if, it should be changed.

2) Follow the manufacturer's maintenance recommendations. You should use the same oil analysis described above at least for the first few oil changes to confirm that those recommendations are adequate for your application.

If you're not doing one of those two, any hydraulic-system problems you're having are really your own fault.

Oil analysis is essential in either case because, let's face it, manufacturer's service recommendations, especially for hydraulic systems, are shots fired in the dark. They have smart engineers looking at component design parameters and extensive testing data, but they got no idea how you are using your hydrualic system or how good your hydraulic oil is. And variation in how hydraulic systems get used in the world are so diverse that they can only pick a conservative middle-ish point and say, "There. That's when most people should change their hydraulic oil."

In my opinion, if you want to manage hydraulic systems for minimum downtime and maximum bang for the buck spent on labor and materials, you have to know your own hydraulic systems pretty well. You can best do that with thorough oil analysis (particle count, spectrograph, and chemical tests). And you're best off sampling every other engine-oil change or so (close to 500 operating hours). You can always reduce frequency if the results prove pretty consistent.

The people I've spoke with who have researched and attacked hydraulic-system problems have all started with rigorous oil analysis programs. And they've all implemented fairly similar measures. They get militant on hydraulic cleanliness. A little contaminant (dirt, metal, water, anything) always creates a lot of contaminant -- mostly metal off the interior surfaces of valves, cylinders, pumps and motors, but some rubber off of seals, too.

A surprisingly high percentage of the best managers find themselves having samples of new oil analyzed. Anybody who's run particle counts on the oil they receive at retail -- either from a bulk truck or in packages -- knows how dirty the stuff is when it's sold to them.

It's dirty -- seldom meets the hydraulic-component manufacturers' target cleanliness levels for acceptable component life. Run it through a filter with specs at least as good as the finest filter in your machine's hydraulic system. Lots of people use a filter cart with much-higher-efficiency filters to get the stuff clean. They convince their jobbers to filter the oil coming out of their trucks into their bulk tanks (and they specify the efficiency of the filter), and then they put filters on their own bulk tanks and trucks or other dispensers to filter the oil before it goes into the machine's hydraulic tank.

You don't have to be an engineer to do this. Get JLG to help you out. They have good people. Just push up the chain until you find somebody who knows hydraulics and will help you with your system. If you can't find anybody at JLG, go to the hydraulic-component manufacturer. But don't go empty handed. Make sure you have some oil-analysis history and component-life history defined and in hand. Define your problem and challenge them with it.

You need to clearly establish housekeeping rules for maintaining the cleanliness of oil in storage, oil in transit, and oil being poured into a machine's reservoir. If you don't make it clear that they can't pour make-up oil into a dusty bucket, or one with a bunch of antifreeze residue still in it, they will do it. You will not reach the hydraulic-component manufacturer's target cleanliness without these measures.

Write policies for replacement hoses. Spec them carefully. Make sure the couplings match properly, and the hoses will stand up to your application.

Tolerate no weeping seals. As soon as dust starts to cling to cylinder rods, the cylinder is allowing dust into your hydraulic system. You need new seals.

Install dessicant reservoir breathers with high-efficiency filters on machines and bulk tanks. Your hydraulic systems, unless they're the sealed type, suck gallons of air off the job site every time the operator runs the boom out. You don't want the dust and humidity in that air in your reservoir. Establish a service interval for those breather filters and follow it.

A remarkable number of people I've spoken with about hydraulic-system maintenance use high-efficiency filter carts (filter buggies, kidney-loop filters, dialysis machines, lots of different names) as part of their maintenance program. It's basically a cart with a pump to push oil through some very-high-flow, high-efficiency filters. They use oil analysis to establish an effective interval where they go in and change a machine's hydrualic filters and run the oil in the reservoir through the filter cart. Often it's at that 1,000-hour interval, when the service man's going to be working on the machine for a while anyway and the cart will have time to polish the oil.

As long as the oil's not being overheated, and you're maintaining improved oil cleanliness (lack of contaminants AND water), you should see better hydraulic-system reliability. And you should never have to change the oil.

Here's one angle on improving hydraulic reliability and component life.
Prevent Leaky Hydraulic Systems

Here's a story about how Waste Management attacked the problem of poor hydraulic-system life (yes, a very different application from yours, but they are approaching hydraulic system maintenance just as anyone should).
Waste Management Cleans Hydraulics To Cut Costs


C.J. Miller spends 45% more on maintenance but saves money by reducing maintenance frequency

How to Reach Hydraulic Cleanliness Targets

Sorry about the diatribe, but this is a subject that I consider to be really crucial to operating equipment cost-effectively, and one that I've studied pretty intensively.

Hope this helps,

Larry
 

milling_drum

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Usually its rather obvious when hydraulic oil breaks down, it loses its slick composition, it gets bubbly/foamy when it gets too warm or hot. The machines gear drives may tend to make some noise because the oil isn't acting the way its supposed to.

In high pressure setups there is usually a required criteria for when it should be changed.
 

lantraxco

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In my experience the most overlooked and most vital oil change is the first one. Most manufacturers suggest changing out the original (break-in) oil at less than 500 hours, some as low as 100. This goes for planetary gears also. It makes me shudder just thinking about all the warranty failures I've seen that could have been prevented by changing out the metal contaminated factory fill.

Another thought... flush those replacement hydraulic hoses out before installing there's almost always some rubber cuttings or dirt inside them.
 

Speedpup

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Thanks for the info and links CEwriter. I was reading the article about repairing hydraulic pistons where they say 250 to repair a machine :eek::eek::eek:

Wear is as easy to see as a drip of oil in the dust, and the vast majority of cylinders in construction equipment can be resealed in four hours for less than $250

I know the article was done in 2001 originally but 250 goes no where in machine repair. I bet to repair one lift cylinder in my Lull (seal replacement only) would be $1,500 - 2,000. I did one myself in 4 hours with the help of a laborer. I didn't pull it off the machine I just pulled the rod and piston out. I can't get the new pistons for steering cylinders of which some have a ding or two. Only a complete new cylinder assembly is available for $989. New piston rod for lift cylinder is $1895 lus shipping is over two grand.

The breather on my hydraulic tanks are a joke they were like wrapped up cardboard under a tin can :rolleyes: Can't imagine how much dust gets pulled in that way. I swapped it out to the later oil filter type they now use. When I took out the seal on the lift cylinder it was like a broken Oreo cookie:eek:. They looked OK and was not weeping when it just blew out. I replaced it but know now I need to do many cylinders on 4 machines :( to have reliable machines. I hate leaks and then if I am on a concrete floor it is bad.

When I worked in Brookhaven National Labratory they would send out a person to certify the machine had no drips. They would let it in the site only with the tag / cert.

I see I have a ton of work to do in the future and need about 200 galons of hydraulic oil :(. I think I'll pull some oil for kicks and get it checked. Any leads on testing companies? I have used Blackstone Labs for engine oil in the past.

Thanks all for the tips!
 

DPete

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The rams I've had resealed usually run between $600 and $1000 for larger Cat rams. Sometimes the rod needs rechromeing or exchange for a reman. Not cheap but any oil out is dirt in. I usually run the oil 2000 hours with filter changes @ 1000 of course if you drain the tank you only get part of the oil as there is alot left in the rams. I like the filter cart idea, I wonder what micron the filters are? Cat systems are sealed unlike some systems with a vented cap that can breath in dirt. Be clean when changing hoses a little extra time is well spent to blow off flanges or JIC fittings before loosening. Leave the plastic caps on until the hose is in place. All those clamps and brackets are important to hose and hardline life so put them back and order new ones if they are missing. Hose armor can be a lifesaver for your hoses in the right place. The suction lines to the pump can be a source of cavatation, keep them tight and in good condition
 

Speedpup

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What does it cost to re-chrome a piston? Mine is 6' long and 2-2.5 diameter. Do most hydraulic repair places offer this? I'll have to ring a few tomorrow. Local guys would not even give me a price. All kinds of BS excuses like the end cap may be froxen and I said no I loosened it already. I even ask if it goes as good as possible what is the cost? No answer from them. Las time I bought the machine it it was 6800 + - 10% estimate when I left it was 11,900 :eek: for their parts changing exercise in my opinion. Took three weeks for the repair and a ton of calls to Lull.:mad:

I saw on line they can repair pistons on site in the machine but have not found anyone in NY to do that process.
 
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