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Just another day in paradise

Mike L

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
1,972
Location
Texas
Occupation
Self employed field mechanic
It was all Deere parts and I used engine oil for assembly lube because that’s what Deere calls for. i ran it for 2 hours before I turned it over to them and they put another 15 on it. who knows how long it made noise. There is a kid running it and he said it just all of a sudden died but it had to have made noise beforehand. The thing that is eating me is that if the oil pump failed and caused This, Deere will cover the pump but what about everything else? It’s not the owners fault, technically it wouldn’t be my fault, but who is responsible for paying for the parts? I’m guessing I’ll be eating this one.
 

crane operator

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
8,433
Location
sw missouri
What are we talking about for parts cost? $5-6,000? Wil the customer live with a used crank?

Did the crank just look good? Or did it measure out good? i.e. the crank hadn't been previously ground?

Wasn't visible signs of a oil leak- filter/ turbo return gasket/ and it leaked out all the oil?

If you had done the motor for me, I'd probably pay for the parts if you would cover the labor?

Stuff goes wrong sometimes, and I figure on spending about 4-6,000 every year because someone's screwing up. Guys back into stuff. Equipment gets damaged, etc. . Its just part of it.
 

Old Doug

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,648
Location
Mo
Being a mechanic is not easy. The new guy at work was joking and ask what i wanted to be when i growed up i said anything but a mechanic. I fill bad when for anyone that tries to do a good job and has problems.
 

Vetech63

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
6,500
Location
Oklahoma
The thing that is eating me is that if the oil pump failed and caused This, Deere will cover the pump but what about everything else?
Deere won't cover anything else....they didn't do the job. Unfortunately, it's the nature of this business. If this happened to me, I would have to bite the bullet and fix it myself covering everything. Being self-employed, the last thing you need is a reputation that you won't correct redos completely. I have been in this type of position many times in the past........how you take care of this is what will build or damage your reputation. If your customer offers to help with the cost.........that's a plus, but don't expect it.

Were all 4 rod bearings damaged as much across the 4? Were the mains comparable? If the rod bearings are all toasted the same, and the mains are less...........I would be looking at the rod bearings first.

I built a Detroit long ago that had .010 bearings packaged as standard size. I caught it before I ever fired it up...........but mispackaging happens. Also.....numerous times have I gotten wrong parts due to a parts lackie not paying attention to serial number breaks and the parts being different under those breaks.

Sorry this happened brother. The good thing is its yours and you can fix it how you want. I'd be looking for good used parts to help keep the cost down. If your customer requires new, have them make up the cost difference.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
17,277
Location
WWW.
Were all 4 rod bearings damaged as much across the 4? Were the mains comparable? If the rod bearings are all toasted the same, and the mains are less...........I would be looking at the rod bearings first.
Rods are last to get oil & will always be roasted more than mains. I've seen mispackaged bearings
but never mis-stamped bearings.
*
To have a mass clearance issue the crank or block would have been machined previously.
As far as assembly lube {oil is called for by most all manufactures}. I personally use lube
designed for assembly work, for the simple reason of extended cranking on initial startup.
Starvation, material covering sump pickup, air entering lube system, oil pump incorrectly
assembled/machined, oil filter internal collapse/plugging.
*
And lastly did this engine use some oil on break-in and oil was added?
*
As far as installing a used crank and reconditioned rods--that shouldn't matter.
 

Junkyard

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,651
Location
Claremore, OK
Occupation
Field Mechanic
I just built a C12 for a dump truck. I didn’t need to see this lol. I feel for ya man. It happens. I have pondered how I’d handle it if one went sideways. I’m truly torn between my reputation and the lack of parts quality. I did get everything for this through the local KW dealer. I have a good rapport with them and should $hit go south parts wise I’m confident they’d do all they can to make it right.

Knowing what DMiller went through with my old truck and other past experience I did verify all bearings were same part number etc. I pre-lubed it with pan off to make sure everything was good before I buttoned it up. I’ll do it again before I bust it off the first time which will be today or more likely tomorrow. It was all assembled with the super sticky assembly lube. New cam and bearings, followers, valve bridges etc.

This particular engine hadn’t been apart all that long ago based on the look of things other than the #6 cylinder was was damaged by dropped valves. It became an out of frame when I found cam and follower damage.

Even without the sick Deere I’d still be on edge a bit after the first fire.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,775
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Was close to this on the C15 with Line Bored Block I did not catch, oil pressure was so weak had to find the problem but managed not to destroy anything.
 

Mike L

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
1,972
Location
Texas
Occupation
Self employed field mechanic
Deere won't cover anything else....they didn't do the job. Unfortunately, it's the nature of this business. If this happened to me, I would have to bite the bullet and fix it myself covering everything. Being self-employed, the last thing you need is a reputation that you won't correct redos completely. I have been in this type of position many times in the past........how you take care of this is what will build or damage your reputation. If your customer offers to help with the cost.........that's a plus, but don't expect it.

Were all 4 rod bearings damaged as much across the 4? Were the mains comparable? If the rod bearings are all toasted the same, and the mains are less...........I would be looking at the rod bearings first.

I built a Detroit long ago that had .010 bearings packaged as standard size. I caught it before I ever fired it up...........but mispackaging happens. Also.....numerous times have I gotten wrong parts due to a parts lackie not paying attention to serial number breaks and the parts being different under those breaks.

Sorry this happened brother. The good thing is its yours and you can fix it how you want. I'd be looking for good used parts to help keep the cost down. If your customer requires new, have them make up the cost difference.
#2 and #6 connecting rod bearings were the worst. None of the mains were spun but all looked like high hour bearings. I went and finished removing the crank this morning. Cut open the filter and found it full of metal. (No surprise) called the parts guy and explained the problem. He told me to bring down the filter, pump, and an oil sample. I did and the parts manager and service manager went over the chain of events. Then came the odd questions. Did you get an oil sample before you rebuilt it? Umm, no. can‘t say I’ve ever done a sample before a rebuild. Did you use John Deere break in oil? No i used rotella 15w40. They looked at each other like they found a loophole. They are supposed to be sending the sample and the pump to Houston so the man behind the curtain can make the call. To be honest I didn’t check the stamping on the bearings. The mains rolled in nicely and the rods fit good and the engine rolled smoothly. not saying this couldn’t be my issue but it had good oil pressure and nothing felt too tight. I’m quite sure that in a day or two someone will call me and tell me that the pump is fine and if I had used super special formulated John Deere break in oil none of this would have happened and they will be happy to sell me some more parts.
 

Mike L

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
1,972
Location
Texas
Occupation
Self employed field mechanic
Rods are last to get oil & will always be roasted more than mains. I've seen mispackaged bearings
but never mis-stamped bearings.
*
To have a mass clearance issue the crank or block would have been machined previously.
As far as assembly lube {oil is called for by most all manufactures}. I personally use lube
designed for assembly work, for the simple reason of extended cranking on initial startup.
Starvation, material covering sump pickup, air entering lube system, oil pump incorrectly
assembled/machined, oil filter internal collapse/plugging.
*
And lastly did this engine use some oil on break-in and oil was added?
*
As far as installing a used crank and reconditioned rods--that shouldn't matter.
as I stated above I didn’t think to check the stamp on the bearings. I’ll check it when I go back. I don’t know if it used any oil on break in. It only ran 17 hours. Operator claims it never made noise but that seems far fetched. I guess at this point it doesn’t matter. Broke is broke.

main bearings
IMG_8213.jpeg
oil filter
IMG_8225.jpeg
 

Mike L

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
1,972
Location
Texas
Occupation
Self employed field mechanic
I just built a C12 for a dump truck. I didn’t need to see this lol. I feel for ya man. It happens. I have pondered how I’d handle it if one went sideways. I’m truly torn between my reputation and the lack of parts quality. I did get everything for this through the local KW dealer. I have a good rapport with them and should $hit go south parts wise I’m confident they’d do all they can to make it right.

Knowing what DMiller went through with my old truck and other past experience I did verify all bearings were same part number etc. I pre-lubed it with pan off to make sure everything was good before I buttoned it up. I’ll do it again before I bust it off the first time which will be today or more likely tomorrow. It was all assembled with the super sticky assembly lube. New cam and bearings, followers, valve bridges etc.

This particular engine hadn’t been apart all that long ago based on the look of things other than the #6 cylinder was was damaged by dropped valves. It became an out of frame when I found cam and follower damage.

Even without the sick Deere I’d still be on edge a bit after the first fire.
I’m always a little on edge at first start up. This one caught me by surprise. It went together well, started easily, and I ran it for 2 hours before I turned it loose. I’m not the world’s greatest engine builder but Im no rookie either. This is the first one I’ve ever had go sideways. I’m well aware that this failure may be something I overlooked but I would like a definitive answer before I do it again. I really don’t expect any help from the dealer. They’ve made it clear that they aren’t fans of independent guys.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,970
Location
Canada
It could be a case where the guy operating it doesn't want to say it made a noise because he doesn't want to be blamed for it. I was lucky that I noticed no oil pressure right after a bang and shut the engine off. Who ever was running the engine in question likely wasn't watching the oil pressure and kept the engine running till destruction not realizing it had no oil pressure. It had to have made some kind of noise even if just a squeal. As far as JD not covering it because you didn't use JD oil, I don't think they can use that as a reason to deny warranty.

 

Junkyard

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,651
Location
Claremore, OK
Occupation
Field Mechanic
Any signs that the operator or company did something to cover a mistake on their end? Does it have a remote filter? What’s it got for a cooler? Was there a failure of an ancillary system that starved it of oil due to a leak somewhere?
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,355
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
As far as JD not covering it because you didn't use JD oil, I don't think they can use that as a reason to deny warranty
The only warranty express or implied is probably just the oil pump that failed or whatever part it was, parts only. So they will not be denying him warranty but not extending any favors either.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,257
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
Not to get too far off topic here but this story made me recall a problem we had many years ago with a fresh rebuild. Probably on the range of 40 years ago so details are very sketchy to say the least! This was an old Waukesha six cylinder gas engine that was old even back then!

Forget all that was done, but it was an out of frame rebuild. Got it together and as we would always do after a rebuild we hooked it to a water barrel and would run for several minutes on the shop floor while watching oil pressure. Then would shut down and reset valves then run for several minutes while checking for as one boss would say "leaks and squeaks"

As I said details are sketchy but recall that during the initial couple minutes we shut it down to maybe tighten something or look at a possible leak. Then when we went to start it again it would not crank over! As I recall we found that a main bearing had seized! Only good thing is this must have happend just as we shut the engine down not while it was at high idle! Recall pulling crank somehow without a total tear-down. Took crank and bearings to the shop that did the crank work and had supplied the bearings. Recall they used a press to straighten the crank and just polished the one journal. Reassembled engine with new bearings and engine was just fine for years after powering the truck part of the lattice boom crane.

Trying my best to recall if this was the engine that had a failure from driver over-speeding it on a down hill grade. I recall one of the truck cranes that was damaged that way. Driver tried to say it didn't happen but recall finding the Bendix Air compressor had snapped both rods but the big end of the rods were still attached to the compressor's crank and were not seized to it!
 

Mike L

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
1,972
Location
Texas
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Self employed field mechanic
Any signs that the operator or company did something to cover a mistake on their end? Does it have a remote filter? What’s it got for a cooler? Was there a failure of an ancillary system that starved it of oil due to a leak somewhere?
No signs of operator error. the operator is about 19 years old and I’m sure he had the radio boppin. No remote filter and the oil cooler is 2 inches from the filter. No other leaks. the engine is a Deere 6068 in a 648L-2 skidder.
 

colson04

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
2,120
Location
Delton, Michigan
Operator probably had ear buds in blasting away. All of the teenagers that have worked on our farm over the last 10 years seem to have them glued into their ears.

@Welder Dave while I agree it probably did make a noise, it might not have. The camshaft seized in the head of my truck over the winter while I was driving down the road. I had the radio off as I normally do. Never made a squeal, squeak, nothing. No low oil pressure warning light, Motta. It just shut off as I slowed for a stop sign and wouldn't crank over. On tear down we found the signs of failure.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
17,277
Location
WWW.
Just because it's oem new really means nothing, nor does the time involved before it took
a dump. For instance a certain N14 Cummins with 150K that lost oil pressure, and deemed
oil pump failure. Cummins warranted the mess, only to find out later there had been a issue
with a certain lot of pumps {the serial number on pump fell in that window}. Same pump
used from 1980 to 1999.
*
Unfortunately labor will be eaten and only a maybe on some parts.
 

Welder Dave

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Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,970
Location
Canada
Operator probably had ear buds in blasting away. All of the teenagers that have worked on our farm over the last 10 years seem to have them glued into their ears.

@Welder Dave while I agree it probably did make a noise, it might not have. The camshaft seized in the head of my truck over the winter while I was driving down the road. I had the radio off as I normally do. Never made a squeal, squeak, nothing. No low oil pressure warning light, Motta. It just shut off as I slowed for a stop sign and wouldn't crank over. On tear down we found the signs of failure.
It ran for a while to cause that much damage so even if no noise the oil pressure gauge should have shown no oil pressure. Maybe the operator was wearing ear muffs or something so didn't notice anything until it was too late? Is it possible the skidder got on too steep of an angle and starved for oil? If the oil pump is deemed to be the problem, I think at least the parts damaged by its failure should be covered on warranty. Sometimes it depends on how big the company is though. A big customer of JD is more likely to get less run around than a small customer with only a few machine's. If there's metal in the filter could be from faulty oil pump components. I remember reading about a part for a BE marine crane failing catastrophically because it was the wrong type of steel. Warranty was limited to just the failed crane and not other damage caused by its collapsing. Hopefully JD takes some responsibility. If it could be proven to be an oil related failure, Shell could be on the hook but that's unlikely. The same goes for the filter but it would be more likely than an oil quality issue. Was it a JD filter?
 
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