Modern class 3 pickup durability?

[Shimmy1]

here is the deal. If your truck weighs ~9000 or so and you put 27000 pounds behind it, you are betting everything on one blue wire. 1 to 3 truck to trailer ratio.

Really, in a lot of ways, not entirely different than a 20k tractor in front of 105.5k.....

Just sayin'.

 

[skyking1]

Really, in a lot of ways, not entirely different than a 20k tractor in front of 105.5k.....

Just sayin'.

No, because of the way air brakes work. If the blue wire breaks disconnects etc you get no warning and more importantly no safety brake application. If the glad hand comes off or a fitting breaks or whatever, you come to a stop. Been there done that and had to fix a line. It was really dramatic, going uphill with an empty truck on I-5. Luckily I had what I needed.
Electric brakes only self-apply when the trailer comes loose and pulls the lanyard, *AND* you have a charged up safety battery. I think that's a wee bit too late

 

[Georgia Iron]

I've spent the last 5 years hauling around a 10 ton goose neck with my f450. I am at max with my trailer. Basically I am using my truck to hotshot a 17k motor grader.

The Ford f450 6.7 power stoke and 10 speed is one hell of a combo. Best truck I have ever owned. This truck has been worth it's weight in gold. I typically get to dump the trailer and load and then have a decent vehicle to get around town in unloaded. The DOT are harassing big trucks non stop here. I completely avoid them unloaded.

My truck has rolled 140k never been to the shop. At times the load seems unsafe mostly when crowded by bigger trucks on the road.

I own bigger trucks but I use the small one when I can. I got 90k miles out of my rear 19.5 factory tires, 45k out of the fronts. Never rotated the rears. It's nice getting 16 mpgs unloaded. Really saves on fuel. When loaded 6.5 to 7.5 mpg

I have hauled several large trailers that had no brakes. I have seen guys moving d4s not me. Truck takes double the distance to stop if your trailer brakes stop working.

My truck tells me if the trailer brakes become disconnected so normally you know to watch out
Heaviest load. Blew 3 trailers tires on that one.

Typical load below


12' 850 blade assembly. Frame and rake

 

[Truck Shop]

One thing not mentioned {parking brakes}. A 3030 air can equipped brake system has to
be able to hold the max GVW on a 20% with only a roll back of 12" when applied otherwise you might see electric brakes on 80K loads. It would be interesting driving a Quad dump & pup with juice/electric
brakes wouldn't it.
*
I can see the DOT sign at the top of Cabbage Hill--Truckers Check your Brakes--Make Sure
Blue wire is Working.

 

[cfherrman]

I've towed heavy in pickups a lot. I do it at low speeds around 60 mph.

Do not do this in a 1 ton, a f450 maybe but it will be expensive as it will be a throw away truck.

Put 20k into your mack and it will out live you, then part with the extra 150k you will have, 60k less from purchase price and the rest from taxes, tag, insurance, and tires.

 

[crane operator]

ill just remove the dump bed from my Mack and turn it into a tractor.

In my area. a running driving dump truck- even getting due for a engine rebuild, is worth twice what a road tractor is. Prices have really dropped on day cab road trucks, from a year or two ago. Dump trucks are still $40,000, day cab road tractors are back under $20,000

I think you could buy a decent road tractor, for less than the cost of paying someone to do a engine rebuild. Of course if you rebuild the engine, you kind of know what you have, etc.

But I wouldn't pull a dump bed, to make a road tractor.

 

[hvy 1ton]

here is the deal. If your truck weighs ~9000 or so and you put 27000 pounds behind it, you are betting everything on one blue wire. 1 to 3 truck to trailer ratio.
The loaded trailer is just going to own you if that connection fails and you crest a hill and find out the hard way. it is a sickening feeling.
I think weights like that need air brakes, and that is not popular in many lightweight circles.
It has nothing to do with modern truck advancements in the light trucks, and everything to do with the failure modes of air brakes.

Air brakes are definitely safer, but I put juice brake medium duty trucks way above the blue wire on the danger scale. As a kid I was banned from riding with my Dad in the F700 after the brake booster failed catastrophically on a hill. I've never had a electric trailer brakes just stop working. Well, one trailer got struck by lightning while it was loaded with hay, but the trailer wiring being converted to magic smoke was the least our problems at the time.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Air brakes are definitely safer, but I put juice brake medium duty trucks way above the blue wire on the danger scale. As a kid I was banned from riding with my Dad in the F700 after the brake booster failed catastrophically on a hill. I've never had a electric trailer brakes just stop working. Well, one trailer got struck by lightning while it was loaded with hay, but the trailer wiring being converted to magic smoke was the least our problems at the time.

I have never heard of a trailer getting hit by lightning. Did it burn?

 

[DMiller]

Have had the Pucks fail open, wires to axles corrode or get snagged away and still had closed circuit on controller with next to no braking, steel tube on truck frame rapid decompose blow out with trailer on, used electric system to get home on.
Have had auto slacks quit, drums heat swell, air lines pop or blow off fittings and chambers fail, so far always managed to limp home. Old Pete I had driven local would not accelerate one day, check engine light on for multiple failed sensors. Lightning had dropped a tree alongside it, the shock electrical blast smoked the Cat ECM.

 

[Oxbow]

There's a guy out around Grass Valley, CA that will haul his 10 ton Mecalac with his 3500, but most of the time he uses his 5500 for his heavier stuff. Having a trailer with electric over hydraulic brakes makes a big difference in my opinion. I can't remember what he says in this video, but it'll probably help.

I'll bet @Pops52 knows him!

 

[cfherrman]

Drive through a cut corn field just a little bit and e trailer brakes will not work.

Drive a little bit down county roads and it only takes one rock to take out one or more brakes.

Factory wiring is horrible wiring

One who drives fast enough in a pickup or pickup derived truck and relying on electric trailer brakes is one that will get into a wreck.

 

[hvy 1ton]

I have never heard of a trailer getting hit by lightning. Did it burn?

Most of the round bales did. The trailer has a diamond plate deck, so there wasn't much to burn besides the tires. My dad fenced off this 10 acre patch from a larger pasture after a third cow got struck by lightning in like 300' radius. He had just finished loading round bales on the trailer when lightning hit the neck. The concussion blew in the back window of the tractor. He was able to unload the burning bales before any of the tires caught fire, but it ruined all the wiring, lights, and brakes on the trailer. He was lucky the lightning didn't do anything to the tractor.

Drive through a cut corn field just a little bit and e trailer brakes will not work.

There are trailers like that, but none of mine are and none of them anywhere I've worked were like that for long.

 

[DM&RDBulldog]

I've spent the last 5 years hauling around a 10 ton goose neck with my f450. I am at max with my trailer. Basically I am using my truck to hotshot a 17k motor grader.

The Ford f450 6.7 power stoke and 10 speed is one hell of a combo. Best truck I have ever owned. This truck has been worth it's weight in gold. I typically get to dump the trailer and load and then have a decent vehicle to get around town in unloaded. The DOT are harassing big trucks non stop here. I completely avoid them unloaded.

My truck has rolled 140k never been to the shop. At times the load seems unsafe mostly when crowded by bigger trucks on the road.

I own bigger trucks but I use the small one when I can. I got 90k miles out of my rear 19.5 factory tires, 45k out of the fronts. Never rotated the rears. It's nice getting 16 mpgs unloaded. Really saves on fuel. When loaded 6.5 to 7.5 mpg

I have hauled several large trailers that had no brakes. I have seen guys moving d4s not me. Truck takes double the distance to stop if your trailer brakes stop working.

My truck tells me if the trailer brakes become disconnected so normally you know to watch out.

Thanks for the info, that's what I was looking for. Do you travel a lot of rough terrain to get so little life out of your steer tires or were they cheap tires? I know my Mack isnt exactly comparable to your F450 but im getting close to 110k out of steer tires. Your fuel economy is also lower than mine (7-8mpg) and I currently gross 64k as a dump or tow a 29k excavator on an 11.5k trailer.

 

[skyking1]

Air brakes are definitely safer, but I put juice brake medium duty trucks way above the blue wire on the danger scale. As a kid I was banned from riding with my Dad in the F700 after the brake booster failed catastrophically on a hill. I've never had a electric trailer brakes just stop working. Well, one trailer got struck by lightning while it was loaded with hay, but the trailer wiring being converted to magic smoke was the least our problems at the time.

I had that experience too as a young man logging firewood. We had a 62' F600 with the 292 4&2.
I was coming down off Raven Roost on Little Naches and the booster diaphragm was holed, and instead of pullng on the brakes and helping me, it was pushing against my foot and not doing a dang thing to slow it down. I was able to scrub it down in the ditch and not lose a tire or my life. The booster was a remote under the seat in that truck, an odd and complicated set of plumbing on the brake lines.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Thanks for the info, that's what I was looking for. Do you travel a lot of rough terrain to get so little life out of your steer tires or were they cheap tires? I know my Mack isnt exactly comparable to your F450 but im getting close to 110k out of steer tires. Your fuel economy is also lower than mine (7-8mpg) and I currently gross 64k as a dump or tow a 29k excavator on an 11.5k trailer.

I probably have 25% left. I change them early once I notice vibration from the edges cupping. I am not sure why they wear faster other than all the turning. I run factory continentals so they are top of the line at $550 each. I drive in and out of sites on typical construction entrances. I would not say that it is rough terrain. If it is even slightly soft the truck gets stuck with a load on it.

The main advantage of the f450 is it can also serve the role of a f250. So I normally drive it everywhere. It turns better than a 350 or 250 because the front axle is wider. It does have 550 axles, tires, wheels and brakes which means your slightly heavier than a 350 which gives you slightly less towing capacity.

It easily can do a 10 ton bumper pull or a 12.5 ton goose neck. The 350 gets about 1 mpg better at 76 to 80 mph if you drive that fast. The 450 is lower geared so. The rpms run about 2250 to 2400 at 78 or 80

I have the same experience running the f350 the guy I used to work with had 3 of them. I would take the 450 over the 350 every time

 

[DM&RDBulldog]

That makes sense. I never travel more than 65mph and my E7 putts along happily at 1600rpm. I think these small displacement engines just about make their torque where mine makes its HP. Ive gathered a little bit of info from Ford and Ram forums but its pretty limited as it seems not many people at least on the sites ive asked are operating like this.

Its looking like im just going to designate one of my Macks for the LTL contracts ill take on. Ive got a single axle DM600 with the 237/6spd that will probably work better than my RD690 300/7spd.

 

[Georgia Iron]

That makes sense. I never travel more than 65mph and my E7 putts along happily at 1600rpm. I think these small displacement engines just about make their torque where mine makes its HP. Ive gathered a little bit of info from Ford and Ram forums but its pretty limited as it seems not many people at least on the sites ive asked are operating like this.

Its looking like im just going to designate one of my Macks for the LTL contracts ill take on. Ive got a single axle DM600 with the 237/6spd that will probably work better than my RD690 300/7spd.

You can't go wrong running what you have. I live in a small subdivision that does not allow big trucks, so mine has allowed me to keep a "work" truck at home. The milage is so much better than my 7.3 i don't even want to use it. 225 miles needs a fill up. I have gotten 650 miles out of the 43 gallon tank in the 6.7. The biggest cost is fuel by far.

Lastly the 6.7 is quiet to drive, i can use a speaker phone and hear. It uses def so it does not stink like diesel. I actually am OK with def as long as the system works ok.

It is so much more truck than the 250s. I just traded my last 250 for a dozer. Not sure that I will replace it, again.

Anyway good luck.

 

[MG84]

Air brakes are definitely safer, but I put juice brake medium duty trucks way above the blue wire on the danger scale. As a kid I was banned from riding with my Dad in the F700 after the brake booster failed catastrophically on a hill.

I had that experience too as a young man logging firewood. We had a 62' F600 with the 292 4&2.
I was coming down off Raven Roost on Little Naches and the booster diaphragm was holed, and instead of pullng on the brakes and helping me, it was pushing against my foot and not doing a dang thing to slow it down. I was able to scrub it down in the ditch and not lose a tire or my life. The booster was a remote under the seat in that truck, an odd and complicated set of plumbing on the brake lines.

Yeah all the old class 6-7 trucks with single pot master cylinders and hydraulic brakes are pretty scary when you think about it. Blow any line and the pedal goes to the floor. Booster goes bad and it's two feet on the brake with all your might. And in an emergency that driveline brake, assuming it works at all, gives you about 5 sec of braking before the shoes burn off it.

I learned to drive 'big trucks' on 70's vintage medium duties with hydraulic brakes and was always taught to drive like you don't have any brakes. Anticipate that stop or turn well in advance and start slowing down. Always be in the right gear to descend a hill with little to no application of the brakes, usually the same gear you'd climb it in (at like 5-10mph). Don't touch that 2spd rear end at the top of a hill or on the down grade, and so on. Drive like that and 'hopefully' when you really did need the brakes they'd work.

 

[DMiller]

Hydrovac brake boosters were job security on medium duty trucks in the 70s/80s, farmers here still have a few but repair parts are damn near non existent and rebuilders long gone. Other than on cars and light duty trucks, juice brakes are about as antique tech as it gets and as scarce except the asian and euro equipment.

 

[DM&RDBulldog]

You can't go wrong running what you have. I live in a small subdivision that does not allow big trucks, so mine has allowed me to keep a "work" truck at home. The milage is so much better than my 7.3 i don't even want to use it. 225 miles needs a fill up. I have gotten 650 miles out of the 43 gallon tank in the 6.7. The biggest cost is fuel by far.

Lastly the 6.7 is quiet to drive, i can use a speaker phone and hear. It uses def so it does not stink like diesel. I actually am OK with def as long as the system works ok.

It is so much more truck than the 250s. I just traded my last 250 for a dozer. Not sure that I will replace it, again.

Anyway good luck.

I appreciate what you've had to say. This is a decision that doesnt have to be made right away so ill sit on it for a while and hopefully talk to more operators. I did test drive a Ford F350 and F450 already, yes much quieter than a Mack.

The technology in the new trucks is impressive and like you mentioned the truck is so quick to warn you if the trailer is connected/disconnected, brake faults, low tire pressure, all sorts of stuff I check for multiple times a day on the old trucks.