So I lost my ass for the first time on a job...

[Aliate]

So I posted another thread about 2 weeks ago about being anxious before a job, I got a call to do 800ft of trench in downtown jersey city and set 2 small manholes. I thought it would be money in the bank as I was going to show up with another crew, all together we had 12 laborers, 2 air compressors, 4 jackhammers, a Cat 430, a Case 580, triaxle dump truck, 2 air compressors and a utility truck.

Well the road surface was 24in thick, on top of 4 inches of concrete, and there was even solid bed rock in some places. We were averaging about 60 feet per day, when I was expecting to do 400+. I had to call it quits mid way through because I was losing a lot of money and at the price being paid for the job I just couldnt continue, its the first time in almost 2 years in business that I actually had to stop a job. Coming right out of the winter I didnt have enough in the bank to take on a job like this, asphalt went up to $90 a ton for some reason compared to $55 a ton last year. I dont feel so bad about it as it was good experience, and I have work lined up for next week that I can make back my money. After this job I really want to move into residential contracting.....heres some pictures from the first day...

 

[Aliate]

And for your amusement.....the worst saw cutting I have ever seen in my life. This is why I want to get out of industrial contracting...

 

[stumpjumper83]

why jackhammers instead of a breaker on a backhoe? Saw cut it, send the first hoe in to break it up, second cleans it out, and lays the pipe, or is there some condition i dont know about?

Oh, and trust me there are ways to screw up in residential work as well...

 

[Buckethead]

Sorry to hear your job didn't go well. Excellent pictures, though!

 

[Aliate]

why jackhammers instead of a breaker on a backhoe? Saw cut it, send the first hoe in to break it up, second cleans it out, and lays the pipe, or is there some condition i dont know about?

Oh, and trust me there are ways to screw up in residential work as well...

Well I dont have access to a breaker for a backhoe and also I was worried about utilities buried in the road surface, I dont have a lot of experience with breakers on backhoes/excavators though. If the job paid more though that would probably be the way to go

 

[Colorado Digger]

Please do not take this wrong, because there is no harm intended. How are you able to walk off of a job halfway through? Even though you are losing money doesn't mean it is ok to tuck tail. What about you're reputation? You're relationship with the client? It is easy to see why the job was difficult but didn't you know what was involved? 400' feet a day down a city street with that equipment is dreaming. I know times are tough but walking away from work is never a good idea. I have sucked it up many times and finished jobs that were a loss, but usaully the client appreciates that and hsa something else down the road. I am not trying to pick a bone or talk s...t. so maybe next time things will be different. good luck. p.s don't think residential is any easier.
I would think a mini ex with a trenching bucket and a skid steer with a hammer, sweeper and bucket would have done it. 2 operaters, 2 guys fitting pipe and jumping jacking and a tandem. I know you have to work with what you have. so maybe easier said than done.

 

[Speedpup]

I would be afraid of the guy suing me for thousands for non-completion and delays That could make your loses so far look tiny. I am not an excavator but you need to know what you are digging and if I didn't know from municipal plans I would have qualified the bid as to what I was digging. The contractor may figure he got something for nothing if he didn't pay you and let you walk hopefully. I know if I walk from a masonry contract they would have the right to bring in another contractor and that would not be cheap probably inflated, plus hit me with delay cost.

You have learned a lesson hope it doesn't get to costly. You never truly make up a loss unless some hands you a pile of money.

 

[dynahoescott]

So I posted another thread about 2 weeks ago about being anxious before a job, I got a call to do 800ft of trench in downtown jersey city and set 2 small manholes. I thought it would be money in the bank as I was going to show up with another crew, all together we had 12 laborers, 2 air compressors, 4 jackhammers, a Cat 430, a Case 580, triaxle dump truck, 2 air compressors and a utility truck.

Well the road surface was 24in thick, on top of 4 inches of concrete, and there was even solid bed rock in some places. We were averaging about 60 feet per day, when I was expecting to do 400+. I had to call it quits mid way through because I was losing a lot of money and at the price being paid for the job I just couldnt continue, its the first time in almost 2 years in business that I actually had to stop a job. Coming right out of the winter I didnt have enough in the bank to take on a job like this, asphalt went up to $90 a ton for some reason compared to $55 a ton last year. I dont feel so bad about it as it was good experience, and I have work lined up for next week that I can make back my money. After this job I really want to move into residential contracting.....heres some pictures from the first day...

Hi Aliate, nice to see you on here, sorry about your job but I have to say I could have expected nothing else. I have worked in the area for years and if you can dig there, you can dig any where, utilitys all over the place and then some. I even know the exact street you were working on. you can forget about using a hammer there also,as far as the rock goes its either blast or nothing.if this was your first job in the area I hope to see you around and best of luck in the future.:usa

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Well, Colorado Digger said it best.
How you deal with problems says more about a person than how you deal with success. I do not know the area you are working in, but from what I have seen here, to plan on 400 ft per day in city streets with many other utilities, is a recipe for failure.

The comment about asphalt price being what it was, didn't you call for quotes? Things like asphalt, plastic pipe, and much of the other material you use depends greatly on the price of oil, and it changes quite often. Last year at this time, oil was around $40 per bbl, this year it is around $80 per bbl. you should expect a huge price increase. When oil was $140 per bbl, prices were even higher. Saying you did not know really says you did not check before you priced your work.

You say you can't afford a breaker for the backhoe, but what does labor cost. If 1 backhoe can break more than 2 men with compressors and jackhammers, try renting the breaker. It will be cheaper than the 2 men, unless you are paying peanuts. When I started out, and still, if I don't have the right tool for the job, one of the rental houses does, and I get it. The job gets done, and you save money too.

This sounds like a good lesson in qualifying your bid. You are still responsible to do due dilligence, but if you expect to dig 8" of AC, and you fins 24" instead, that is grounds for a change order, as long as you spelled it out beforehand.
I am assuming this work is for a private developer of some kind, or a general contractor, because if it was public works, for the city, county, state, etc.. you would have to have a bond that guarrantees you to finish the work.

Regarding the sawcutting, did they work for you? They were on your job, and you allowed it to go on that way. If the work is not adequate, then they should have to correct it. There is a pattern here, if the general contractor hired them, it tells me he is hiring unqualified "contractors??" and the quality of work he is getting shows it. Why are they in the cutting business if they can't cut a straight line? If they are working for you,
why are you letting them do the work like that?


I know if I walked off a job that was not finished, I would expect to never again work for that customer, or anyone he knows. This is a small industry, and word travels fast, bad word even faster. It only takes word of one failed job like this to keep you out of many jobs in the future. Many of the prequalifying questionares you have to fill out to work for compaanies ask if you have ever walked off of a job. The only thing worse than a yes answer in that space is a lie that comes out later.

I do wish you luck with this problem, but you have dug yourself a hole by not finishing the hole you were digging.

I probably sound like I am riding your case, but I bet there is a qualified contractor sitting somewhere without work while you are mucking around blindly loosing money and costing others as well.

 

[Aliate]

Please do not take this wrong, because there is no harm intended. How are you able to walk off of a job halfway through? Even though you are losing money doesn't mean it is ok to tuck tail. What about you're reputation? You're relationship with the client? It is easy to see why the job was difficult but didn't you know what was involved? 400' feet a day down a city street with that equipment is dreaming. I know times are tough but walking away from work is never a good idea. I have sucked it up many times and finished jobs that were a loss, but usaully the client appreciates that and hsa something else down the road. I am not trying to pick a bone or talk s...t. so maybe next time things will be different. good luck. p.s don't think residential is any easier.
I would think a mini ex with a trenching bucket and a skid steer with a hammer, sweeper and bucket would have done it. 2 operaters, 2 guys fitting pipe and jumping jacking and a tandem. I know you have to work with what you have. so maybe easier said than done.

I have been in this situation before, I did a job in stamford, CT, where we did 200 feet of trench that was through 8 inches of asphalt and 24 inches of steel reinforced concrete, I just got it done, didnt really make any money but I did it. On this job I cannot continue, I ran myself completely out of money to the point where I cant pay for asphalt for the job. Ive got smaller stuff lined up for next week to get me back on my feet but working for this GC has been like this for a year and a half now. I understand the importance of just sticking it out and getting the job done, and I wish I could, but it will put me out of business on this one. I do appreciate the advice though and I dont take offense or anything, its just different on my end. I rented the backhoe and dumptruck, I just own a utility truck that has a built in 185cfm air compressor for 2 jackhammers and also a 6 wheel 33,000gvw dump truck.

 

[Aliate]

Hi Aliate, nice to see you on here, sorry about your job but I have to say I could have expected nothing else. I have worked in the area for years and if you can dig there, you can dig any where, utilitys all over the place and then some. I even know the exact street you were working on. you can forget about using a hammer there also,as far as the rock goes its either blast or nothing.if this was your first job in the area I hope to see you around and best of luck in the future.:usa

Nice to see someone who knows the area, I was able to do about 4 other jobs in the area, and had nowhere near the problems that I did on this one. We hit everything you can imagine in the ground including steel plates.

 

[Colorado Digger]

,As far as the sawcutting goes... please tell me that was a subcontracter. If my guys did that kind of work, first a prompt ass chewing, second a redo- we would have opened the saw cut up another foot and had nice clean cuts . I know my guys can cut a straight line with a cut off saw, although we would have rented a walk behind for that one. Any one with any experience will tell you to take you're lumps and get it done. There is no excuse for that type of work and usually a job that starts rough ends rough. We are here to help... or at least I am. I would seriously calling the client and make prompt amends. Sometimes it can cost tens of thousands of dollars that comes out of our pocket, other times the client will help out. Communication is important.
Whatever city you worked in is probably due a phone call as well. What cities allow street cuts without bonds?. I don't know what the work went for but someone else is probably saying" I told you so"
It is not all of the jobs that went perfect with satisfied clients but the one that got away from you. Everybody always remembers a messed up job.
not trying to be to rough but i would think about it. p.s.s. if you have anxiety about 800' foot of 2' deep trench down a city street don't even consider looking at any water or sewer,that might cause a nervous breakdown. p.s.s.s. if you rented equipment, why not think about a mini that can load a truck tail gate style? I am not bagging on you so sorry if it comes across harsh. call the g.c. and work it out. it is not business so i cannot make those calls, but if finishing the job is gonna break you maybe you should have thought about that before you started.

 

[Aliate]

Just to clarify with everyone about walking off the job and all, this job was a lot less formal than you think, I never bid on the job. I am sub contracting for a guy that bought out my father's company 10 years ago. The way things have been working with this guy is that he will call me up on friday and say were digging 800ft of trench starting monday 9am. This is how this job worked out. The GC brought in one of his crews that he pays by the hour and can afford to do this job. They are not paying extra based on the conditions. The GC is paying 30$ a foot and we were getting 50 feet a day. I dont know how to explain my relationship with this GC but the way they work is ridiculous. They work with broken equipment, they do hand work instead of using machinery, its just crazy. This guy works like the egyptians do. If I had the money I would rent a backhoe with a hammer and get this job done. This GC has kept me broke. I made the mistake of buying a dump truck from him for 14,000$ and it was kind of just a handshake deal and hes taking as much as he can out of each my checks towards the truck. I put in a 6,500$ invoice for my retainage and he took 4,000$ towards the truck, he wanted to take the entire thing but I had to explain to him that I needed it towards bills. I know it looks and sounds like my business is ass backwards, and it is at the moment. I started with absolutely nothing and Im being run through the meat grinder, Im doing my best to get away from this GC because its killing me.


Colorado, that was the other crew on the job, I couldnt believe my eyes after he was finished saw cutting.

Another thing Im only 23 years old and I dont have a lot of experience in the business yet. But yes I did not have to put up a bond or anything Im guessing the GC did that. The actual customer is vorcom, I dont even know who they are. I think as far as they know, I am an employee of the GC, I even just put his name on the side of my trucks for now until I get the decal I want of my company name. I am incorporated but Im in the process of getting a name change.

 

[Colorado Digger]

ok, the guy is using you and he knows that. so watch out and be careful , i remember those days and the gc's look at you with thier mouth drooling. take it as a lesson learned.

 

[Aliate]

what do you mean the gcs look at you with their mouth drooling?

 

[Dozerboy]

He means the GC saw someone he could take advantage of as in your young and don't have a lot of experience..


Lot of good points made in here. I would say a breaker would of been over kill though. From my experience that 420 would of pulled up the AC with CLEAN saw cuts by a good operator. The pieces could of been drop on the ground in a way to not damage the street but yet break the large chunk into more manageable pieces.

 

[Aliate]

Yeah I feel like im definitely being taken advantage of because I have absolutely no financial power to say no to any of the jobs hes throwing my way, so like I said im being run through the meat grinder.

 

[stumpjumper83]

At this point do you have any paperwork on the previously mentioned dumptruck? Or is it a handshake only deal. Please tell me you have papers to back up the dumptruck...

By this point you should have some contact in the business have you thought about working for another GC?

Another solution might be to do the job faster with different equipment. Maybe cut it deeper with a highway saw rather than a cutoff? Try renting a larger wheel excavator. When all else fails look at what others are using in the area to do simular work.

 

[Aliate]

There is a rockwheel I have access to but it is in the shop, but yeah that would be the solution to this job. And no I dont have paperwork on the dump truck. My father sold this guy his business for 300,000$ on a handshake and we had a check every friday from him for about 2 years. One thing about him is he pays on time, all the time. I guess I consider him an old friend in that respect.


edit - If I could do it over though I would do it with paperwork.

 

[Turbo21835]

So in other words you are running a truck that is registered to the DMV to someone else? Cause there is no way in hell you could register it in your name without a title. In other words, your getting shafted coming and going. Might want to sit down and do some serious thinking