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The Ultimate Medium Dozer?

StanRUS

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
767
Location
Cal
I just still do not see the necessity to electrify a machine with an engine in it for motive power, is NOT like a train with need of multiple drive motors to make better tractive effort.
Cat shipped 500th D7E electric Oct 2012 Claims 1.4million gallons of fuel saved
“With diesel over $3.50 a gallon in the U.S. and even higher in Europe, that’s several million dollars going directly to our customers’ bottom lines,” said Scott Johnson, worldwide tractor product manager. “This financial benefit, as well as the corresponding reduction in emissions, will compound as field population continues to grow.”
Ref: https://www.cat.com/en_US/news/mach...00thd7etracktypetractorwithelectricdrive.html
Cat & Volvo, Komatsu Hybrids, excavators, wheel loaders mostly about reduced fuel burn.

Personally I'd like freeze @ R-series dozers. Electronic engines are okay, additional electronics just add to 'more stuff to go wrong'. High Drives are bullet proof, D6H diff steer typically goes of 20K hrs without touching internals, ditto engine, torque and trans. No special care, just oil changes per Cat spec's and S.O.S occasionally.

My 1st experience with Cat S.O.S was mid-70s. Cat dealer used re-chromed crankshaft in D342-46A engine. S.O.S results keep showing high-iron. Receive phone call, 'check oil pump', check this, check that:mad: Remedy, pull engine, remove crankshaft, grind to 0.050" undersized> problem solved @ my customer's expense (again). I inherited representing customers' $$$ interest from my dad, WTF screw ups caused by dealers' people. Good talent gets hired by local contractors who pay higher wages.

Off-topic (large dozer) article about repowering economics versus purchasing new form 2012. 2012 repowers were on hold due to lack of Gov grant funding.
https://www.constructionequipment.com/cat-d11-repower-doubles-machine-life
 
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John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
Cat claims a lot of things that may or may not be enhanced, open to interpretation or might be out right lies. Everyone is claiming more efficient fuel consumption and their interpretations of why their machines are better. I believe data from end users over anything a manufacturer's marketing department wants to broadcast to the world. Chances are most of those 500 D7E tractors are demo models and in dealer rental fleets because they couldn't be sold at those price levels.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,425
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Was an electro-magnetic signature(magnetic Field), have to discharge or induce a counter current to that electrical signal to get rid of it. We had issues at the plant with retained electrical signatures(Induced voltages) where we had to ground EVERYTHING, our electricians referred to it as degaussing.
 

StanRUS

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
767
Location
Cal
I believe data from end users over anything a manufacturer's marketing department wants to broadcast to the world.
Of course manufactures hype their products.
Data from Product Link shows 'less fuel burn-reduced operating cost per hour' for large scrapers repowered with C18,C15s (versus 3412,3408Es) per Dave Peed who owns/operates over 100 57Es though out the US and Canada. Per Construction Mag survey only 30% (my memory?) of Product Link users are monitoring fuel usage.

Was an electro-magnetic signature(magnetic Field), have to discharge or induce a counter current to that electrical signal to get rid of it. We had issues at the plant with retained electrical signatures(Induced voltages) where we had to ground EVERYTHING, our electricians referred to it as degaussing.
When you take of your footwear, we're grounded to the earth; the way our genetic design was intended, original degaussing.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
That's fine for Mr. Peed and 57E machines. How many D7E machines is he running and what are those costs. Repair and down time costs are never backed up with facts in marketing materials. I haven't seen where they were tracked in Product Link either.

I was warned about being the grounding path to earth when doing an inspection on a D7E. Thinking about a heart suddenly stopping or burned internal organs is a nightmare I don't want to experience.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,425
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
We had a line worker that ignored a Ground Everything rule, reached up and grabbed at a 'Pothead'(transformer connection) where a DC induced voltage discharged to HIM, he died. The ability for electrical high tension cables swinging in the wind to undergo a field from the Earth and develop a induced voltage/current potential is pretty scary. We had large electric motors at the plant we physically grounded all phases to keep them from building current like a ignition coil Supersized. On these machines one would have to be Mechanic, Electrician, and have high voltage safety equipment to work on them. Anything over 300v ac or dc was considered as High Voltage under OSHA and NFPA.
 

StanRUS

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
767
Location
Cal
Repair and down time costs are never backed up with facts in marketing materials. I haven't seen where they were tracked in Product Link either.
Repair/downtime in marketing materials, all I've seen is grand total test hours, not specific item caused downtime. Cat service adviser shows how-many events, improved part(s), engineering approved work-arounds etc. Current Cat equipment receive wireless update ECM flashing from Cat support.
Product Link, subscription > Essentials > option > 10 minute cycle notifications with instant engine off/on alerts and instant events-fault code alerts can be used to track (and record) non scheduled downtime/repairs. Alerts via direct email or text messages and dealer support contact. How this works in the real-world, 'sit down for lunch in Irvine, Calif with Peed sub-employee-welder-Rick' just back from Canada...discussing Product Link. Rick, 'yep received phone call 57-39 low fuel pressure, change fuel filters', developing problem resolved. If fuel filter clogging is a trend, then corrective action needed to be taken with the re-fueling equipments' filtering.
Telemetry (Product Link > Cat ET etc) are diagnostic tools used to prevent non scheduled downtime.

Cat Diff Steering D6 mid-sized dozers / D8 sized steering > plus D10 sized planetary finals.
Cat's Diff Steer is a hydrostatic steering system that doesn't reduce power to the tracks while turning; i.e. beats the competitions' hydrostatic motor drives during side-by-side comparisons tests. (Ref: video link below) AND is not affected by system wide hydraulic micro erosion wear requiring expensive multiple component replacements.
Patent US 4434680A
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4434680A/en
New D8T video, read 1st commenters reply >Roger Meeker, "Trust me, if I could find an impartial firm to perform a scientific study like we do....I would definitely do it!"
Well ya, 1) why would an impartial firm absorb the financial cost to perform the side by side testings? 2) Hey, John Deere, "give me a new 1050K on the market for 3yrs to side-by-side test against Cat's New D8T"
Scientific Study: 1) can be replicated 2) can be falsified; results could not be replicated using the same testing methods
I would not purchase or recommend purchasing any of the OEM's newly released models for 2.5-3 years, until the bugs are sorted out or junk label is applied.
PS: Video @ 1:46 notice cutting edge arrangement, e.g. different angles @ outer edges that direct material more efficiently to improve productivity. Similar to Australian invented SpadeBlade without infringing patents.
 
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John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
Nice video from marketing but how about doing a study to a comparable machine. Maybe a Komatsu 155AX.
I was working on Komatsu differential steering in 1993 on D65EX and PX machines. It isn't anything new.

You have brought up a salient point though that hasn't been addressed anywhere. While working at a Cat dealer I saw that Product Link was an option and was only good for a year on a new machine and had a big extra charge to keep it going. Even the rental company had to pay to have it installed on new machines. Very few companies would pay the subscription. I'm pretty sure it is standard now but at what price added to the new machine. I know both the Deere and Komatsu dealers keep telematics on for the life of the machine without an extra fee. I don't know if they would go fix it if something went wrong with it. I'm not certain the Cat dealer fix it even under warranty.

I absolutely believe in waiting the 2.5 - 3 years on a new model. But lots of bugs show up at 3 - 5 years as well and you get to pay for those on your own.

I still say don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see, especially from an entity that stands to gain at your expense.
 

StanRUS

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2016
Messages
767
Location
Cal
Nice video from marketing but how about doing a study to a comparable machine. Maybe a Komatsu 155AX.
I was working on Komatsu differential steering in 1993 on D65EX and PX machines. It isn't anything new.
Side-by-side comparison with Komatsu 155AX, 'per Cat-Roger Meeker, coming soon'...Product video reply 1 month ago. That comparison will interesting, Komatsu lead the race with increasing complexity, e.g. electronic controls and telemetry required to help keep the equipment running. Versus Cat's manual>hydraulic control system (later electric over hydraulic). Cat has dominated production class dozers with low tech 10-11s.

Example of Designing Around Existing Patent(s)
Cat Diff-steer (patent 1980) is simpler-KISS compared to Komatsu's (1st patent 1993) D65EX-2D15 with HSS. HSS requires complex steering controller, cross shaft-gears etc; i.e. more component parts to wear/break and require additional maintenance/repairs. Cat's early manual tiller/diff steer, electronics = backup alarm switch // replacement parts after 16-18thou hrs (open ROPS) = tiller control shaft's sealed ball bearings, 4ea clevises and pins.

Per Komatsu (internal use only) literature their diff-steer design is simpler.
Ref: https://vdn.komatsu.eu/new_equipment/displayfile.ashx?fileid=15825
Literature for salespeople to razzle-dazzle potential customers using engineerings' subjective interpretations. Example page 27, dozer arm's cross sectional area (ratio) compared to D7R. D7R arm upper-lower material 25mm compared to D65-14mm; D7R has increased compressive strength.

Komatsu (humbled Cat where so many had failed with 'Mura C = surround Cat') Komatsu's historical failing has been less than ideal product support, i.e. parts on back order, can often = parts no longer in production // typical service life to major repairs has been 7500-8500 hours. 1st S. Cal Komatsu dealership MDCO; Demo-rentals with ****-poor service personnel = established bad reputation for reliability/service. Have a rock-job, rent a Komatsu to destroy:), that went on early 70s to mid 80s.

You have brought up a salient point though that hasn't been addressed anywhere. While working at a Cat dealer I saw that Product Link was an option and was only good for a year on a new machine and had a big extra charge to keep it going. Even the rental company had to pay to have it installed on new machines. Very few companies would pay the subscription. I'm pretty sure it is standard now but at what price added to the new machine. I know both the Deere and Komatsu dealers keep telematics on for the life of the machine without an extra fee. I don't know if they would go fix it if something went wrong with it. I'm not certain the Cat dealer fix it even under warranty.
John,
I don't have a answer for you, but out of curiosity I'll find out at later date. Have Hitachi EX1200 line boring job on the hook, $$$$
 

Pawho

New Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Messages
1
Location
Florida
I sale all sizes of Dozers.
 

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Rhinovangogh

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
24
Location
United States
Why not hace a CCTV on the rear of the big boys with rippers? The Volvo ADT's I drive all have them, they are great for the greenies, and having a CCTV on a ripper would eliminate the need for a swivel "Captain Kirk" chair.
Brilliant idea. It would help like all the backup cameras and gadgets on the new autos. A CCTV that could take the pummeling may be a challenge?
The Ultimate Dozer? With a belly pan winch.



Took a while too... Lol

Here's some pictures of the winch I just installed, to lift the back pan on a 750c.

First, I cut a chain splice in half and welded it to the pan bottom for the winch cable... the one to the left is just to show what I used.


This just shows how I attached the cable. I actually double lined it by running the free end back on the drum.


This is the dinky little winch I used... lol
My Brother bought it a couple years ago, and it's just been laying around here. It's basically an ATV winch... I think he said it cost about $45.00.


Another winch picture... dragging pan under dozer.


This shows the winch starting to lift the belly pan.


I'll post the rest tomorrow.


OCR
Brilliant!
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,425
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Companies are going Autonomous or remote operator these days, many are already fitted with multiple cameras as they reduce in size.
 

Rhinovangogh

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
24
Location
United States
Companies are going Autonomous or remote operator these days, many are already fitted with multiple cameras as they reduce in size.
Autonomous equals robot? I am old school as far as machinery likes and dislikes. I see the value of technology but am too simple to catch on to circuit boards and complex wiring. Cameras seem pretty simply but I would rather drive and sweat and feel the rumble and scrape of my old dozer rather than have the new rides described in some of the posts here. I am not sure what the ultimate dozer would be like, but like my grandfather used to say, "you gotta like the dog you own and take care of it;its the best one you have". Not quite ready for anything fancy. I would like to try a camera for the rippers though.
 

Rhinovangogh

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Messages
24
Location
United States
Cat shipped 500th D7E electric Oct 2012 Claims 1.4million gallons of fuel saved
“With diesel over $3.50 a gallon in the U.S. and even higher in Europe, that’s several million dollars going directly to our customers’ bottom lines,” said Scott Johnson, worldwide tractor product manager. “This financial benefit, as well as the corresponding reduction in emissions, will compound as field population continues to grow.”
Ref: https://www.cat.com/en_US/news/mach...00thd7etracktypetractorwithelectricdrive.html
Cat & Volvo, Komatsu Hybrids, excavators, wheel loaders mostly about reduced fuel burn.

Personally I'd like freeze @ R-series dozers. Electronic engines are okay, additional electronics just add to 'more stuff to go wrong'. High Drives are bullet proof, D6H diff steer typically goes of 20K hrs without touching internals, ditto engine, torque and trans. No special care, just oil changes per Cat spec's and S.O.S occasionally.

My 1st experience with Cat S.O.S was mid-70s. Cat dealer used re-chromed crankshaft in D342-46A engine. S.O.S results keep showing high-iron. Receive phone call, 'check oil pump', check this, check that:mad: Remedy, pull engine, remove crankshaft, grind to 0.050" undersized> problem solved @ my customer's expense (again). I inherited representing customers' $$$ interest from my dad, WTF screw ups caused by dealers' people. Good talent gets hired by local contractors who pay higher wages.

Off-topic (large dozer) article about repowering economics versus purchasing new form 2012. 2012 repowers were on hold due to lack of Gov grant funding.
https://www.constructionequipment.com/cat-d11-repower-doubles-machine-life
I have seen in other threads discussions concerning pure vegetable oil running diesel machinery. I wonder if any of the big manufacturers have seriously considered earth friendly/pocketbook friendly engines run on pure veggie oil? I run pure vegetable oil in my Duramax and have zero complaints for the fre oil I put in with a smile.300,00plus miles to date...)
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,425
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
Have a number of veggie burners around here, only real issue is cold, cloud point too high fuel gets too thick and will not flow. Conventional anti gel additives do not work on the goo.
 

JD955SC

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
1,349
Location
The South
I heard that Cat is making the cabs a lot easier/faster to pull on the “new” dozers. If so thank God because working through the hell hole in the cab floor goes right to the top of my “this really sucks” list. If I can pull the cab quick and easy instead it will be so much better.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
The electric D7 has a tilt cab. Cat has always been kind of late to making things easier for mechanics. Tilt cabs have been standard on other makes for years. I do like the high drive finals and the ability to remove a transmission out the back of the machine rather than pulling pans and dropping it out the bottom.
 
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