Trench collapse

[crane operator]

https://www.ky3.com/2022/12/12/body-recovered-after-trench-collapses-workers/

 

[Camshawn]

Sad day when someone doesn’t come home from work….

 

[skyking1]

That's some bad looking stuff by the trench. Sad day indeed.

 

[Tinkerer]

A sad day in Buffalo Grove IL yesterday.
A 27 year old man died in a trench collapse.
I just watched the WGN Chicago News Report.
So sad and so preventable.

 

[skyking1]

I will stop and say my piece 100% of the time when I see people in harm's way. So preventable indeed.

 

[John C.]

Seems to be enough news coverage when ever it happens. I'm just wondering why it keeps happening.

 

[skyking1]

People move up through this trade and that guy in the ditch is the bottom of the ladder and maybe just started with the company. They don't know any better, they don't have regular safety programs at small companies, and they don't have a guy looking out for them.(the experienced operator) You'll notice it's rarely a large outfit that has these accidents. You'll see big outfits get violations.

 

[DMiller]

Slipform shoring is too common anymore, rentable, NOT expensive and still get laborers killed doing shoddy, can get by without, work. Is absolutely NO reason this should still be occurring.

 

[John C.]

My question is why aren’t some people put in jail when that happens?

 

[Shimmy1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and not that it's any excuse, but isn't shoring only required when you get over 5' in depth? That's just a mini there, people can and do get killed in ditches less than 5' deep. Tragic, but sometimes sh|t happens. Like I said, not an excuse.

 

[skyking1]

It's 4 ft . Yeah if you have your head down in a 3 ft ditch and things go wrong you're in trouble.
Being a competent person isn't just about shoring, it's knowing about trench stability. You dig enough and you realize when you're next to an existing trench line, and that bank is just going to loaf off into your ditch if you turn your back on it.

 

[DMiller]

Previously disturbed soils next to a new or IN a new excavation changes all the rules. Either Bench it back or shore up.

 

[CM1995]

My question is why aren’t some people put in jail when that happens?

Prosecution has to prove some sort of intent. I seriously doubt anyone on that crew or company had any intent that day kill someone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and not that it's any excuse, but isn't shoring only required when you get over 5' in depth? That's just a mini there, people can and do get killed in ditches less than 5' deep. Tragic, but sometimes sh|t happens. Like I said, not an excuse.

That mini can dig deeper than 4-5'.

IMO it's a lack of training and there is no excuse for the lack of training - period. The majority of the fatalities could've been prevented with a competent person actually being competent and not letting anyone in the excavation.

If the project can't afford to pay for proper shoring or benching then no one needs to be part of it. If you're too ignorant to price in proper shoring or benching for the job, you don't need to be in the business. There are no excuses.

 

[John C.]

The charge is "Depraved Indifference" and the explanation of it can be found at this link:
https://lawyer.zone/depraved-indifference/
Everyone in the industry will acknowledge that someone was in charge of that job and responsible for the safety of those working in those trenches. A second degree murder charge I think would be warranted for the owners of the company and the person running the job site.

 

[DMiller]

OSHA and MSA should be on this like stink.

 

[CM1995]

The charge is "Depraved Indifference" and the explanation of it can be found at this link:
https://lawyer.zone/depraved-indifference/
Everyone in the industry will acknowledge that someone was in charge of that job and responsible for the safety of those working in those trenches. A second degree murder charge I think would be warranted for the owners of the company and the person running the job site.

Still be hard to get a 2nd degree murder conviction in most courtrooms with a jury trial.

 

[skyking1]

Previously disturbed soils next to a new or IN a new excavation changes all the rules. Either Bench it back or shore up.

If it has been any amount of time, it takes an experienced eye to spot these things. They don't have a signpost or locate tape.
My point is, the competent person needs to have more than a card, they need the experience to see what is going on. That can be some good training too.

 

[John C.]

I don't think it would be that hard to get a conviction of at least negligent homicide. Both charges are as a result of incompetence. Someone is in the business of digging ditches. That would usually indicate a professional ditch digger was in charge. Part of that profession is some kind of training, experience and success at ditch digging. Here is a phrase from the link to consider:
"The law considers that the person’s indifference or lack of concern for the risk to the life of another is so grave that the actions should be considered as a crime as if the person had malicious intent."

 

[crane operator]

There's no way anyone goes up on a murder charge for something like this. Manslaughter might be the most any prosecutor would try for, and it would get plead down. Be surprising if it even went that far, and likely only if someone with money or connections, on the side of the injured party pushed things. I really don't even see felony charges, maybe misdemeanor.

Doesn't make it any less sad, and I'm on my guys all the time. We are going to find the right or safe way to get the job done, or we aren't doing the job. I don't care what we get done in a day, just that we all get to go home at the end of the day.

 

[Shimmy1]

That mini can dig deeper than 4-5'.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. Like I said, not trying to excuse what happened, just point out none of us here have any idea the exact conditions that led to the collapse, and it's entirely plausible that they may have only been working in a 4' hole, and this was a freak tragedy.

Of course, if they were in a 5', 10', whatever deep hole without shoring and this happened, then hammer down on the guy in charge. But, we don't know and might never know so to ramble about this guy needing to go to jail is a bit speculative IMO.