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Truck spec'ing information help

DKinWA

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
210
Location
Western Washington
Occupation
Biologist and Contractor
I thought I'd become a little more educated on heavy truck (class 7 and 8) spec'ing and I'm not finding much on the web. I know I can go to the folks that build them, but I'd just like to sit and read about it. I'm interested in everything from the basics to the more advanced. For instance, how do you determine the optimum frame length for a dump truck? What's the optimum distance between the steer axle and first drive axle? Is there an optimum dump box length if you're hauling rock at 3,000 lbs/yard? I'm not an engineer by any means, so something from the laypersons perspective would be helpful. So.....if you know of anything on the web, please post some links. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't much information out there since there are sooo many variables that play a part in the spec'ing process. Thanks
 

littledenny

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
132
Location
Ellijay, GA
Occupation
Owner, 2Vets, LLC
DK:

Don't know any good sites, but I may be able to help a little with thoughts to narrow down your requirements. I'm not the smartest on civilian rigs, but I've got 25+ years of experience with military trucks of all sizes and types.

Are you considering strictly hauling, or are you looking for this to be a tow vehicle also? The shorter the frame, the shorter the turning radius, obviously, but the longer the length, the lighter the same truck will rate for bridge weight classification (called Cooper's E-rating). Not sure of your state's requirements, but some states consider this in determining licensing and Max allowable loads.

Shorter trucks will also have a shorter, but taller box, for the same cube capacity; shorter box being lower in height while dumping, and slightly better in terms of the tip over factor, but will reguire a taller loader. Something to consider if you're trying to load with skidsteers, vs. a real loader.

All this is pretty obvious, sorry if I've gone into things you already know. If you want me to get a little deeper into anything, let me know.

You mentioned hauling "rock". Are you taking something larger than a breadbox? If so, there are some options to consider in the choice of tailgates, or even the "non-tailgated" rock beds.
 

littledenny

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
132
Location
Ellijay, GA
Occupation
Owner, 2Vets, LLC
As an afterthought ---

If you're trying to define needs, take a look at some of the truck body builder's sites. One that I can think of offhand is

http://www.bensonintl.com/

They make several bodies, including a specific rock body, and one with a highlift tailgate, which makes moving really big rocks easy. Suppose there are many similar concerns that do the same thing.
 

woberlin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
111
Location
malvern, ohio
Occupation
excavating contractor/bodyshop owner
Go to your local DMV, they should have a book that tells you how to figure the allowable weights for a vehicle. In Ohio its a formula based on the distance between axles and some other factors. Spec your axles heavy enough for the load your looking to carry, as well as the load ratings of the tires. If your looking to legally haul big heavy loads you'll want at least a tri-axle truck, and maybe even a quad axle. If you'll be working off-road consider a double frame. I believe 80,000# gvw is the max without special permits. As littledenney pointed out, vehicle length is certainly a factor to consider depending on your use. Large rock will pretty well beat up a standard steel bed, you may want to look into a "demolition" type bed. They use a much stronger, more impact resistant type of steel, also much more costly. Best of luck!
 

Nac

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
566
Location
NJ
Occupation
Construction
DKinWA said:
I thought I'd become a little more educated on heavy truck (class 7 and 8) spec'ing and I'm not finding much on the web. I know I can go to the folks that build them, but I'd just like to sit and read about it. I'm interested in everything from the basics to the more advanced. For instance, how do you determine the optimum frame length for a dump truck? What's the optimum distance between the steer axle and first drive axle? Is there an optimum dump box length if you're hauling rock at 3,000 lbs/yard? I'm not an engineer by any means, so something from the laypersons perspective would be helpful. So.....if you know of anything on the web, please post some links. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't much information out there since there are sooo many variables that play a part in the spec'ing process. Thanks
Yes I am in the same boat as you, I also can not seem to find much on the internet. You have to reliy on the dealer but from my recent experiance you as 6 dealers the same question you get 6 diffrent answers. I think I got lucky was speaking to the body company and he had a knowalgble dealer call me. I am in the process of specing out A class 8 truck to be at the 33,000 gvw limet right now am hoping to purachase a Volvo VHD
 

DKinWA

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
210
Location
Western Washington
Occupation
Biologist and Contractor
I'm not really looking for a truck right now, but I'm one of those types that's always looking to learn something new. I read a lot and my idea of light reading is a shop manual or researching how to design and build low cost bridges for low volume roads. My wife thinks I'm nuts, but I really don't care for reading stories or the typical fishing and hunting rags. When I'm sitting in a waiting room, I'd rather read a college text book on the hydrologic cycle than the typical magazines they provide.

What can I say? I was at an auction the other day and wondered how they calculate where to put a fifth wheel on a truck. With my F800, I've got a 12K front axle, 21K rear and 10' dump box and it's difficult to get enough weight on the front axle. After running the truck for a couple of years, I'd prefer a 12' box so I could get more weight forward. Now if I was going to drop $100K+ for a truck, I'd want to be darn sure it would do what I expected. So.....how do they figure this stuff out? Appreciate the input everyone. Thanks
 

littledenny

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Messages
132
Location
Ellijay, GA
Occupation
Owner, 2Vets, LLC
DKinWA said:
What can I say? I was at an auction the other day and wondered how they calculate where to put a fifth wheel on a truck. With my F800, I've got a 12K front axle, 21K rear and 10' dump box and it's difficult to get enough weight on the front axle. After running the truck for a couple of years, I'd prefer a 12' box so I could get more weight forward. Now if I was going to drop $100K+ for a truck, I'd want to be darn sure it would do what I expected. So.....how do they figure this stuff out? Appreciate the input everyone. Thanks

DK: Got your point on light reading - my tastes run from physics to medicine, and I was a business major.

As for figuring your weight distribution - what you're looking for is a calculation of "moment". It's a relatively simple calculation to figure the center of balance, based upon front axle and rear or tandem rear axle weights. ( I used to compute this stuff for aircraft, and ships - manually; Oh, how things have changed. ) I'ts basically impractical to figure this for each load in a dumptruck, though the guys at the highway scales worry about axle loading and fine you accordingly.

On modern tractor trailers- The guys with sliding fifth wheels and sliding tandems can shift their axles around, in relation to the load, to "load or unload" their axles to distribute their weight, as necessary. For the dumptruck guys - normally, you're at the mercy of the guy loading you, and the experienced loaders tend to do it by eye. The guys with the scales on their loaders, normally found only at the gravel pits, can get real good at this, but the average guy at the jobsite either understands or he doesn't.

As for the 10 vs. 12 foot box, if it's a replacement on the same chassis, it would hurt you, not help you to get things heavier on the front.
 

huffmanmb

Active Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
26
Location
Western Washington
Occupation
IUOE Apprentice Equipment Operator
Washington State DOT Reading Materials

Here is a link to the WSDOT Commercial Vehicle Guide. It has alot of information reguarding axle spacing, tire weight allowances etc. Maybe of some help, this is what I have to follow for my dump truck and pup. Appendix 2 through 5 are the most relevant. The guide has not changed much since 03 to 05 I think. Heres the link: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/freight/mcs/CommercialVehicleGuide2002-03.pdf :beatsme
 

Ole JIM

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
14
Location
Augusta.Maine
Occupation
Retired
DKinWA said:
I thought I'd become a little more educated on heavy truck (class 7 and 8) spec'ing and I'm not finding much on the web. I know I can go to the folks that build them, but I'd just like to sit and read about it. I'm interested in everything from the basics to the more advanced. For instance, how do you determine the optimum frame length for a dump truck? What's the optimum distance between the steer axle and first drive axle? Is there an optimum dump box length if you're hauling rock at 3,000 lbs/yard? I'm not an engineer by any means, so something from the laypersons perspective would be helpful. So.....if you know of anything on the web, please post some links. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't much information out there since there are sooo many variables that play a part in the spec'ing process. Thanks
DKinWA--Ole JIM here! I*M a Retired TRUCKER--just so You Know!-VOLVO-is the Parent Co for All Trucks in America w/ the Exception of Peterbuilt & Kenworth--& Most Truck coponants--Engines-Trannys-Rears-steering-front Axles--wheels-ECT are manufactured by other Cos that Specialize in such Compoants--there are a few that make every thing!--VOLVO & MACK for example--Volvo bought Out Mack a couple of yrs AGO!--I*LL use MACK as an Example--just look at the Bull Dog on the HOOD--if? its GOLD that MACK is 100 % all manufactured by MACK--meaning?-its CAB--Motor-Tranny & Rears are Made by MACK--if? it has a Chrome Bull Dog on its HOOD!--other than the Frame & CAB the Runing Gear? is NOT 100 % MACK! --VOLVO also Builds an Entire TRUCK--the Only Differance in Trucks today Really is the Cabs--as frames & all the Other Componants are Built by other Cos that Specilize in all the Truck Engines-Trannys-Rears-Frames ECT!--Peterbuilt & Kenworth build Beautiful Trucks--Top of the Line--but-they DO NOT build their Own Running Gear!--in Your CASE!--Specking out a DUMP Truck! I personally would suggest YOU get a Double Frame! Truck-- & Personally I prefer Road ranger 13 speed Trannys-& Rockwell 44,000 Rears in a Dump Truck--the CAB is Your Preferance!--& BUY a DUMP Body Locally--& have THEM--the Truck Dealer install IT--So If YOU ever DO have any Problem?--Their IT!--& DON*T be FOOLED by PRICE? & by THAT? I mean Don*t BUY a GMC Bridadier--Cheap Model--Spend a few 1000 More! & BUY a Real TRUCK--I have Had E*M ALL over the Yrs! at One time or Another! & I DONO? about the New ONES?--BUT--if I were 25 Again I*D Look at MACK long & Hard before I bought Any truck--as the Ole MACKS were ONE Hell of a TRUCK--just over 20 yrs AGO! I bought a Left Over 1980 GMC General--w/a 425 HP CAT diesel--13 speed Roadranger Tranny & 44,000 Rockwell Rears--I put over a Million Miles on IT but I took good Care of IT & IT ME!--I Wish Now I had never SOLD IT--SUPER TRUCK--I SOLD it to a Young feller thats Still Running IT I See It once in a While!-Still Looks Good-- I had Main & Rod barrings re-Placed--& the OIL Pump Re-built the Tranny Once w/a New Clutch & had the Brakes done a Few Times?--Changed the OIL & Filters every 15,000 Miles & Wore OUT a Pile of Tires--Normal stuff in Running 20 odd yrs!--I HOPE? this HELPS?--Ole JIM--
 

badranman

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Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
218
Location
Halifax Nova Scotia
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Owner Cutting Edge Construction Limited
Glad to have you here OLE JIM. Folks, for those of you who don't know already OLE JIM is not typing like this. I forget what you call it but this is how his typing appears. Please accept this format. I wish to have half the wisdom this man has. Definetly a bonus to Heavy Equipment Forums. :drinkup
 

Nac

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
566
Location
NJ
Occupation
Construction
Hay Ole JIM I have a question for you what do you think about a single axle pulling a 20 ton tag a long? It will be a 190" WB 33,000 GVW 365HP 1,350 FT LB 8LL trans Possible adding a 10 ton lift axle.
 

Ole JIM

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
14
Location
Augusta.Maine
Occupation
Retired
Nac said:
Hay Ole JIM I have a question for you what do you think about a single axle pulling a 20 ton tag a long? It will be a 190" WB 33,000 GVW 365HP 1,350 FT LB 8LL trans Possible adding a 10 ton lift axle.
Nac--here in Maine I see a lot of single axles pulling equipment--NAC does your 33,000 GVW truck have Air Brakes? & if it were ME? & I could Afford?--Too?? I would look into Buying a Good used Tractor & a Low bed--as there are some Nice Used over the Road tractors to be HAD for cheap money--& I suggest You attempt to Locate a used fleet maintained tractor as they will have its service Records! & it may cost You a few bucks More?--but--You will know Exactally what You Paid for! & will have a better Idea? of whats Needed? if any-thing? in the Near Future--& save adding the Air lift Axle $$$ towards Buying the Above!--I like the 33,000 GVW w/ the long WB & 365 HP--but--In considering your in NJ & bumper to bumper Traffic & realizing Pulling a 40,000 Load on any tag-along Trailer--w/ your 33,000 GVW truck--it will only Take ONE Panic STOP--to Prove my POINT!--Hope this HELPS?--Ole JIM--
 

Nac

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Joined
Sep 19, 2004
Messages
566
Location
NJ
Occupation
Construction
Yes the truck will have air brakes and air to the rear. Also will have engine brake. The 20 ton tag a long will also have air brakes. If I add the lift axle there will alos be another set of brakes.
 

Ole JIM

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
14
Location
Augusta.Maine
Occupation
Retired
Nac said:
Yes the truck will have air brakes and air to the rear. Also will have engine brake. The 20 ton tag a long will also have air brakes. If I add the lift axle there will alos be another set of brakes.
Hi Nac--thanks for the air brake INFO--now I can Sleep Nights!--if YOU do get the VOLVO? will You give Me a Ride in IT?--& seeing Its allready Letterd UP--Can I RACE IT for YA!-- in the BIg TRUCK RACES? -- Can I? Can I?-- --Ole JIM--
 

triaxle

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Joined
Apr 3, 2005
Messages
61
Location
Cleveland, GA
Occupation
CEO Mid-sized Grading Company
dumptruck tranny

If you are hauling gravel in a mountainous area, or out of pits, a 15 or 18 speed tranny [ 4 X 4 or other deep low gear arrangement] will pull out of many places that a 13 speed will be unable to start because their lowest gears are lower than the 13 speed. ( 9 ,10 and 13 speed trannys are great for road apps but will wear out your clutch faster on off road)
There are places that our 15 speed dumptruck can work that our 9 speed dump truck cannot work because of the need for very low gears.

Our heavy haul truck, a 379 Pete 425 hp Cat, 13 speed tranny on 4.11 rears and triaxle 55 ton detach must carefully choose loading positions to accomodate the the transmissions lack of bottom end. If I am moving a 200 size hoe ( about 50,000 lbs) the transmission is less critical than when I move a 300 or 400 size hoe. Obviously dumptrucks must come and go from places with steeper hills than heavy haul trucks so this concern is magnified.

Specing a truck requires talking to people who use them to get the operational insights and talking to builders and manufacturers to get engineering insights.

The choice of wheelbase and box size is shaped by your area and intended cargo. 3000 lb a ton gravel can reach weight limits in 13 to 14 feet of dumptruck and if you're delivering in a mountainous or confined areas may cause you to choose shorter wheelbase trucks.
If you're in a state, like Mississippi, that has hundreds of short old bridges, bridge length is important. ( how many axles of your truck are on a short bridge at the same time is what bridge laws are all about. A longer truck can carry more because the front axles leave the bridge before the back axles reach the bridge). There are other states where bridge length is a lesser issue.

Many states allow tri and quad axle dumps so axles and axle spacing may impact your wheelbase decision.

Another thing to think about is this: if you spec the truck too tightly, you reduce the things you can use it for and the potential resale market. If you spec the box real small you may have made it more difficult to haul chips and mulch, stumps, trash and other things and reduced your potential earnings.

As someone else mentioned, although you can find lots of old road tractors at reasonable prices, a double framed dumptruck chassis is superior for dump trucking. The road tractors may or may not have rears rated at over 40,000.

One person mentioned bobcat loading of dumptrucks and dumptruck wall height. If you are loading dumptrucks from the ground ( loader style). Either dig a depression that the dumptruck can back into or build a ramp to climb with the loader. Even if you are not having trouble with reaching the dump bed, it will shorten your loader cycle and save time and fuel if theres much materials to load.

I have 35+ years of transport of everything from D-9 dozers, Patriot Missile Warheads, to AC DC Band tours. We have run as many as 46 trucks at one time.

Good luck with your new truck
 

triaxle

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Apr 3, 2005
Messages
61
Location
Cleveland, GA
Occupation
CEO Mid-sized Grading Company
Oops!

It appears I have used a unit of non-measure above.
Gravel weighs about 3000 lbs per cubic yard depending on the size of the rock.
I hope my error will not be used as evidence of alien influence.
 

Cat420

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2004
Messages
527
Location
Pine Bush Ny
Occupation
Construction, small engine and machine shop work
Here's a chart that I pulled off of a website a while ago to determine material weight.
 

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