TD20, d7g, d6m n r, d8h, 750/850 deer. Thoughts and suggestions?

[Shimmy1]

Georgia, you need to get an oil sample from that 850 as soon as humanly possible. If that tractor begins to show any issues with the drive, about the only thing worth a dollar is the engine, the rest is scrap. In all honesty, you are in a difficult position if a 6T or 65E are not in the budget. I know there are quite a few fans of Deere dozers in the world, but unless you can swerve into one that has had the hydros replaced before a catastrophic failure, they are definitely at the bottom of the list. Good luck with this 850.

 

[TallDan]

For an application like this do you guys have opinions on hydro vs powershift dozers?

 

[Shimmy1]

As far as operability, there really is not much difference. What it boils down to really is are you a Deere guy, or aren't you. Personally, the only hydro machines I would consider owning are Komatsu 39 or 51.

I have never understood the desire to handle propulsion on a 20+ ton dozer with hydraulics.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Georgia, you need to get an oil sample from that 850 as soon as humanly possible. If that tractor begins to show any issues with the drive, about the only thing worth a dollar is the engine, the rest is scrap. In all honesty, you are in a difficult position if a 6T or 65E are not in the budget. I know there are quite a few fans of Deere dozers in the world, but unless you can swerve into one that has had the hydros replaced before a catastrophic failure, they are definitely at the bottom of the list. Good luck with this 850.

I have never done an oil sample on anything. I have not been in a buying situation that allows it. This particular dozer just blew a main drive hose and lost all the fluid so I am not sure the sample would tell us much.

I typically base my decisions on how it runs and works. I look at performance, sound, cold starting ability, blow by and vibrations felt through the chassis. I will show up 30 mins early to make sure i catch the cold start.

This dozer is well worn and was not greased in a long time. I look at grease points and take that in consideration but I don't just base my decision on that item. I look at what I can fix or live with and move on. Rust does not turn me off. I am far more interested in looking for dust/dirt oil behind the air cleaner.

The greasing can be an operator issue which is a hired hand normally. A lot of times the owner get the oils done on schedule but the greasing is always lacking because of lazy operators. Seen this so many times on rental equipment. Logging crews have 3 or 4 men typically and the dozer is kind of there. This was a logging tractor.

A mechanic friend told me they had 2 older 750s on a road project that were run every day for 5 years that the weather allowed. He stated he did normal service on them and that he thought those old deeres would run around a Cat of equivalent size. He said they never had a major repair.

Said the operators loved them and that the 750s were 2 of the few machines that they kept past the 3k/5 yr sell off. He said they were still working in the company.

So who knows it is always a crap shoot. I might have the hydros fail. I am due up for something major somewhere to let loose. I have put far too many hours on old equipment and not had a failure. So it's coming sooner or later.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Which tractor do you guys think has more push the 850 or the 963?

I can tell you this much. The 850 is stronger than you would think looking at it. I was impressed with its ability in the field and that was why I bought the old deere.. I have ran a new 750 so I do have something to compare it to.

The 963 21z is a highly sought after track loader. It is strong and has a lot of hydraulic power. It really makes my old 20z 953s seem so much smaller, not knocking the 53s.

I am not sure which tractor weighs more. I think they are close in weight. The deere has better pads. We are going to put them nose to nose and see who would wins in this old cat and deere shoving match.


963 pads.


850b pads. It has more bite.

It should be a fun experiment.

 

[Shimmy1]

View attachment 335521
963 pads.

If Guinness had a record for most use out of a set of track pads, they've found the winner for eternity.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Well here's my first youtube video..

Dozer was on lower idle. 63 was full throttle. Sitting on the 63 it did not even feel like it had a chance. We will try it again with new tracks on the 63 when I get them. The forward and reverse lever is a bit touchy in the dozer sometimes it keeps wanting to crawl forward.

The 850b is strong, it moved a nice big pile of dirt and stumps on the job. I wonder what the results would be if the 63 had a full bucket of dirt.

 

[.RC.]

If Guinness had a record for most use out of a set of track pads, they've found the winner for eternity.

Well all the pads are still there in one piece.

Seen a few with half the pads missing or snapped and still being used.

 

[materthegreater]

If Guinness had a record for most use out of a set of track pads, they've found the winner for eternity.

Shimmy you need to watch this video:

Track pads are obviously optional in some countries.

 

[TallDan]

I like your inquisitive nature! The 850b should win that fight every time. It was designed to push hard. The 963 can grab a bucket load and move it somewhere else without ripping up the ground too bad. My 953 tracks are getting worn and you get on a decent slope with it and it’ll slide down like it’s on skis. lol

 

[Georgia Iron]

We made the 510 mile round trip down to Sweet Home Alabama. I went after a rake that was on a 850 that lost it's engine about a year ago. Owner used it for the past 25 years clearing fields and making chicken house pads. He had another one that was his parts machine and it also blew the engine. The current machine lost the hydraulic drives and he used the drives out of the parts machine. The parts machine had also blown the engine.







He decided not to put a motor back in the 850 because he thought it would not return the cost again due to its age. They bought a newer 750 with cab and air.

His blade setup was a bit different than mine. After we agreed on the root rake we agreed for me to go ahead and take the whole blade assembly which we proceeded to remove. I took a torch with me and I had to cut the main blade frame in half to get it to fit on the trailer. It was 10' 6"s wide. If I decide to use the blade setup i will need to weld it back together. This dropped the tractors width down to 8'2"s.

The new blade assembly is wider at 12' 3". Mine current blade is 11' 6"s. The new assembly has 2 tilt cylinders and it rotated on a large center shaft. Mine only had 1 cylinder and was locked down with a draft bar that was welded in place so the angle can't be manually changed. No center pivot.

While I was down there i stopped off at another large construction company. They had a 850b with a blown motor.


They wanted 10k for the parts machine without a front blade. Once he heard i was looking for a parts tractors you could tell his wheels were spinning. Oh the hydros are so hard to find and expensive. So his price was , well u get it.. thankfully i am not up against the wall with it. Something better may come along.

I did get to test out their D8H with a ripper which was what actually took me there..

Heck of an old tractor, after talking it over with the owner I am convinced that it is not the right machine to clear woods with lots of stumps. Maybe it could be with a shearing or a K blade, but the over all hassle of driving the beast and getting it to center a stump is probably is not worth it. The clutch levers seemed like it would make for long days on busting stumps.

His 40 years of road building experience suggested if not wanting sink holes later by grinding the tops off, then use the largest excavator you can get for the stumps. He thought the D8 would cost too much in fuel to make it make sense. For now my larger dozer hunt is over. More than likely going to find a 30 ton to 40 ton excavator for the stumps.

 

[Georgia Iron]

The blade assembly rode well on the trailer.
If you look closely you can see the front cylinders on my machine sit in a different place than both of the other machines. Mine sit further forward and the cylinders seem longer. Not sure why. This blade assembly was snagged for possible bushings, rod ends, hard hydraulic pipe, cutting edges, etc. I am half tempted to cut it up and try and make a ripper out of it.

If I don't use the parts it might go to scrap, i took a gamble that i might go back after the rest of it. I have a full tank of oxy/act in it, 2.5 hrs and a 1000.00 cash. I mainly cut it off so that I can haul the whole tractor back and be under 80k and not a wide load if the final drives, hydros and rails could work for me. It is an e model tractor mine is a B model so I don't know what parts will work or not. I can't find any information on an e model.


Both of those parts tractors had better pads than mine. The first one had new itr rails and several new rollers. I believe both are standard track length machines, I think mine is the long track version. Not sure how to add length or if the Cat rails on mine could mix with the others to increase the rail length. I could weld up a few of my pads to fill in for the shorter length. Seeing the better grousers just wasting away really sucked when I see my slicks. One man's trash is another man's fortune.

I have already spent a lot of time on this 850 and it's not at work yet. It needs a few weeks of work to get it ready for the bush.













All in all it was a 400 am kind of day, that turned out well. The root rake was better than I thought with solid tines made with either 3 stacks of 1" plate or 1 1/4. One set of tines needs to be redone. They got ripped off when they were pulling it out of a bottom with an excavator when it was stuck. It is heavy duty and exactly what I was after. Around atlanta they are trying to get 4k out of these things used. I was looking at steel plate, to make my own. Plates is 3 times what it used to cost. Once again rust helps out... with the pricing. New stuff is just so over priced.

If this 850B holds together, I think it will do nicely cleaning up behind my other tractors.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Well they got everything together for the 963 for me been waiting on bushings for the idlers.






I will probably never get a new track loader I dont have enough steady work to justify buying one. This is about as close as i am going to get to new. About 20k worth of parts, new teeth and bucket wear plates.

 

[nicky 68a]

A 963 in the UK we fitted tracks too.
Do quite a few 963/953 trackgroup replacements.

 

[Georgia Iron]

A 963 in the UK we fitted tracks too.
Do quite a few 963/953 trackgroup replacements.

Nkce machine Nicky. I just noticed the k has an extra idler on it. Wondered why they added another one. Any idea what an undercarriage costs over there?

 

[nicky 68a]

Nkce machine Nicky. I just noticed the k has an extra idler on it. Wondered why they added another one. Any idea what an undercarriage costs over there?

I’m not sure on the costs of the undercarriage over here,but Cat never give you the most cost efficient hourly running costs in my experience.
The 963 belongs to a friend that deals in them,but I run my own track type tractors and never have much luck getting value for money out of my Cat undercarriage components.
The key to getting the most life out of your bush is to replace the segments at around 50% of their life.
New segments are cheap and easy to fit on your 963.Those machines are pretty hard on bushes probably due to being under load in reverse with a full bucket reversing out of narrow tunnels etc.
I’m not that well experienced on traxcavators,but the man that owns them is.
It’s rare he fits them with Cat running gear unless he’s selling them on.

 

[Diesel Dave]

The blade assembly rode well on the trailer.
If you look closely you can see the front cylinders on my machine sit in a different place than both of the other machines. Mine sit further forward and the cylinders seem longer. Not sure why. This blade assembly was snagged for possible bushings, rod ends, hard hydraulic pipe, cutting edges, etc. I am half tempted to cut it up and try and make a ripper out of it.

If I don't use the parts it might go to scrap, i took a gamble that i might go back after the rest of it. I have a full tank of oxy/act in it, 2.5 hrs and a 1000.00 cash. I mainly cut it off so that I can haul the whole tractor back and be under 80k and not a wide load if the final drives, hydros and rails could work for me. It is an e model tractor mine is a B model so I don't know what parts will work or not. I can't find any information on an e model.

A Deere 850-E is a straight 850 (no letter designation) with a straight dozer blade
See screenshot below.

 

[Welder Dave]

I’m not sure on the costs of the undercarriage over here,but Cat never give you the most cost efficient hourly running costs in my experience.
The 963 belongs to a friend that deals in them,but I run my own track type tractors and never have much luck getting value for money out of my Cat undercarriage components.
The key to getting the most life out of your bush is to replace the segments at around 50% of their life.
New segments are cheap and easy to fit on your 963.Those machines are pretty hard on bushes probably due to being under load in reverse with a full bucket reversing out of narrow tunnels etc.
I’m not that well experienced on traxcavators,but the man that owns them is.
It’s rare he fits them with Cat running gear unless he’s selling them on.

That's quite interesting that you don't get the best value with Cat undercarriage. I've heard it pays to use Cat undercarriage, especially on D10's and D11's. Does the Cat undercarriage last longer but costs more or life expectancy is comparable to name brand aftermarket like ITR, Berco, etc? Several people have said Berco quality has gone way down from what it was. I know you've used Trek/DCF in the past as well. I'd be curious if you could do a comparison between different undercarriage brands you've used over the years and the pro's and con's of each brand. Were there any that really impressed you or were really terrible? Also a brand that was good on one machine but poor on another? What would you consider to be the most cost effective? Lots of questions but you're in a good position to give an analysis of different brands since you've ran quite a few track machines over the years. Maybe a mix of different brands components is the way to go, X has better sprocket segments but Y has better rollers, etc,? Could be an interesting discussion.

 

[nicky 68a]

You’ve pretty much nailed it Dave.
It’s a complex conversation,but I haven’t had to purchase undercarriages myself on D10 and D11 tractors.
Currently have a D10T tractor in a friends yard and he’s elected to for new Cat idlers and rollers to it.None of us fancy being lab mice for trying an ITR u/c on anything bigger than a D9.
As for D9 and below,yes I’ve fitted various brands and Cat has never given me value for money in over 30 years.Cat makes a very good undercarriage for sure,but does it offer me full value on an hourly costing in comparison to non oem undercarriages?
I’m afraid not.

 

[nicky 68a]

Years ago,I favoured Berco tracks for all my D8H/K tractors,but they weren’t that much cheaper than Cat in the early 90’s.
I should point out that I wasn’t looking into accurate costing on tracks in those days,so I’m unable to give anything more than gut feeling appraisals.
It wasn’t until I purchased my first hidrive D5H LGP that came with a brand new complete ITM undercarriage that I started to sit up and take notice at these cheaper alternatives.That ITM undercarriage worked extremely well and within 200 hours of the subsequent Cat undercarriage I fitted a couple of years later.The Cat tracks returned nearly twice the hourly costs than the ITM undercarriage,but only worked an extra 200 hours.
I then fitted a couple of the D8H’s with ITM and they were great.
I then went into hi drive D8’s and watched the ITM undercarriage equal Cat in wear,but at half the cost.
However,in the UK the ITM brand stopped getting imported into our country and were no longer available.This put me into the hands of ITR,Astrak and the DCF/DCR Korean stuff.
Fitted some DCF stuff to an D8K and they were ok.Cheap and available.Did the jobs.Half as good as Cat possibly and 3rd of the price.A good option for old D8K’s that only clock up 5/700 hours a year.
Fitted some on a D9T also,but have since sold that tractor,so can’t comment,but they were definitely soft,so probably wouldn’t last long in hard going.Due to the effort and cost in replacing big D9 tracks,I think I’d need to look carefully at sourcing some ITR tracks for another D9 I’m currently considering buying.
In summery,you don’t get what you pay for with Cat currently in the UK because they are overpriced,but it is good quality stuff.