1947 TD14 direct start on Diesel?

[WhitetailRidge]

Is it possible to direct start these things on diesel? Just curious if a guy switched the spark plugs out for glow plugs if it would fire over that way? Also just how important is it to start on gas and shut down on gas? I've heard all the stories but still curious.

 

[chidog]

I have done it on one of those old things, don't remember what number the tractor was. It was a new toy the boss got. I'd use the ether bunny on it to get it going.
Too many other projects at the time to get all the parts to do the gas start deal.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

Good to know. I was trying it earlier but I didn't have the diesel on. I was considering trying to put glow plugs in to help it.

 

[TomA]

Joey Barnes,King of Obsolete has one td 18 I believe with welded valves that he starts direct. He does use block heat .

 

[Delmer]

I thought they had an extra combustion chamber that is opened with another valve to lower the compression ratio for running on gas, and possibly the spark plug is in that chamber? so check that before going to the work of swapping spark plugs for glow plugs. I'd think a big block heater would be mandatory if starting direct. If you can't plug it in, then I'd even consider a pony motor, amish honda style, rather than start on gas.

Running on gas for shut down helps cool the engine and prevent cracking as far as I recall, so pay attention to that also. Idle for five minutes or more before shut down?

Red power or other INT sites will have more experience than us on these engines.

 

[Mquinista]

Indirect Injection Engines, even when warmed up to operating temp always have a hard time to start, but in my planet we are used with german style motors ... wich all i've seen have some sort of glow device. Except for the bulb ones , this have to have the bulb heated up, either by direct fire or a gas torch...
Either the gasoline pre-heat or the ether style are much better systems than the bulb system.
Personally i would mod this pre-chamber for a glow system, that is if one can get the glow device in front of the mist stream.
Good luck

 

[1693TA]

It's been years ago but we drilled and tapped a flame heater into the intake manifold for one of these things though the tractor was a TD-24. Was modeled off of what Perkins used in their designs. The design is quite simple and the glow plug, and fuel valve are all in one. You run a fuel line from the final fuel filter to the glow plug assembly, and power through a fuse, relay, and pushbutton to the glow plug. Pushing the button places power onto the glow plug and as it warms opens the self contained fuel valve. After a few seconds of element warm up time, the engine is cranked over in which the engine lift pump pushes diesel fuel right onto the hot surface of the glow plug element. This will ignite readily and burn as long as the engine is cranking which supplies adequate combustion air. Once the engine fires, the power button is released and the glow plug cools closing the internal fuel valve and fuel flow from the lift pump to the glow plug ceases.

These actually work very well and if the engine will crank, it will start with this system if the fuel is not gelled. Those engines did have a nasty tendency to crack cylinder heads however, but that can be mitigated with above average radiator cleanliness and cooling system attention, along with a cooldown after use.

I'd bet you'll be hard pressed to find good usable cores for those cylinder heads these days. Need to take care of what you have.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

Yeah that's what I was wondering and unsure about. From what I am starting to understand it does seem the spark plugs may be isolated altogether. It was just a thought. But I agree with the block heater suggestion. Also one would think as you suggested, because I did, that if you just idled it down on diesel and let it cool that everything should be good.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

Definitely appreciate that response. Sounds like a simple enough deal and it makes sense to me. Yes I have heard about the heads but I agree with you on the excessive cooling maintenance and observations. Should help anyway. I.am certainly trying to take care of this machine and make it work. I've had several people try to buy it for scrap but I enjoy the old iron. Wish it was a couple years older so I could slap an Army paint job on it and have a "war machine".

I do live relatively close to what I think is Zimmermans in Versailles, Missouri. I called and they said they have tons of usable parts foe me. That being said I'm still being easy with what I have. Thanks for your input.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

It's been years ago but we drilled and tapped a flame heater into the intake manifold for one of these things though the tractor was a TD-24. Was modeled off of what Perkins used in their designs. The design is quite simple and the glow plug, and fuel valve are all in one. You run a fuel line from the final fuel filter to the glow plug assembly, and power through a fuse, relay, and pushbutton to the glow plug. Pushing the button places power onto the glow plug and as it warms opens the self contained fuel valve. After a few seconds of element warm up time, the engine is cranked over in which the engine lift pump pushes diesel fuel right onto the hot surface of the glow plug element. This will ignite readily and burn as long as the engine is cranking which supplies adequate combustion air. Once the engine fires, the power button is released and the glow plug cools closing the internal fuel valve and fuel flow from the lift pump to the glow plug ceases.

These actually work very well and if the engine will crank, it will start with this system if the fuel is not gelled. Those engines did have a nasty tendency to crack cylinder heads however, but that can be mitigated with above average radiator cleanliness and cooling system attention, along with a cooldown after use.

I'd bet you'll be hard pressed to find good usable cores for those cylinder heads these days. Need to take care of what you have.

Do you remember where on the manifold you tapped that device in at? Also sorry for the quotes and stuff. Still figuring this place out. I was using redpower but that more or less turned into a joke and getting yelled at by old heads.

 

[1693TA]

All websites have their plusses, minuses, and drama. One must not get hurt too easily when patronizing any of them. However it's looked at, they are still worth the cost of admission.

Those old engines used what is considered a "log" manifold being long and thin in nature. You can put a burner almost anyplace in them but typically they are placed near one end of the manifold so the flame front blasts down the manifold horizontally. You may need to silver braze, or solder a "bung" to provide threads and a bearing surface for this glow plug to screw down into and seat against, but many times the castings are thick enough to drill and tap for the threads, and grind for a "flat". If you do this give the heater about 10 seconds of warm up and while still holding the button engage the starter. When the engine starts, release the heater button.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

All websites have their plusses, minuses, and drama. One must not get hurt too easily when patronizing any of them. However it's looked at, they are still worth the cost of admission.

Those old engines used what is considered a "log" manifold being long and thin in nature. You can put a burner almost anyplace in them but typically they are placed near one end of the manifold so the flame front blasts down the manifold horizontally. You may need to silver braze, or solder a "bung" to provide threads and a bearing surface for this glow plug to screw down into and seat against, but many times the castings are thick enough to drill and tap for the threads, and grind for a "flat". If you do this give the heater about 10 seconds of warm up and while still holding the button engage the starter. When the engine starts, release the heater button.

Yeah I was seeing that they were pretty thin. By the way I immediately search that Perkins setup. That is ingenious! Now I'm just looking for the best style for my situation. I figure if it works good enough I may just have a custom intake made and slap it on totally deleting the gas and saving my old parts.
Are you pretty familiar with these old machines? because I have a couple questions involving leaking water pumps and what not.

 

[1693TA]

Yeah I was seeing that they were pretty thin. By the way I immediately search that Perkins setup. That is ingenious! Now I'm just looking for the best style for my situation. I figure if it works good enough I may just have a custom intake made and slap it on totally deleting the gas and saving my old parts.
Are you pretty familiar with these old machines? because I have a couple questions involving leaking water pumps and what not.

Years ago the mine I was working at had the older TD24. Kind of an odd duck to me and don't know if I've seen another one. The engine was over 1000 cubic inches and different than the TD25B series most of the other tractors were. In those days I really wasn't much of an engine mechanic at all with construction equipment; still not.

The gasoline start, diesel run system worked very well in my opinion. It did need maintained regularly and kept in adjustment as far as linkage. Pretty simple really but from what I remember when the linkage arms were worn, they either would not fully actuate the apparatus, or it would be hard to switch to diesel operation. That is from memory and over 40 years ago so take it for what it's worth.

I usually send water pumps to www.waterpumpkits.com for rebuild. Been using them over 20 years and they have piles of cores available if one I have is bad. Not bad pricing and never had bad service from them. UPS charges add up but you're not going to the parts store for a lot of items for these tractors.

Always found it ironic Allis-Chalmers built their track type tractors less than 35 miles distant from Springfield where I worked on the mine grounds, but I don't remember ever seeing one of their tractors except on a demonstration.

 

[4x4ford]

Kingofobsolete.ca is joeys website if I remember right lots of info on there. Redpower has went down hill the last few years

 

[WhitetailRidge]

Thank you for that info. And I forgot I asked about the water pump on red power and actually got a response. I need to pump it with a bit of grease to see if it helps reseat the seals. If not I'll probably pull it off and send it in.
Also I was looking at my linkages and need to do a bit of tightening here and there. When I bought this machine I was informed I was the 3rd owner. Father inlaw passed it to his son inlaw who is a Vietnam vet and he sold it to me. Had all the service records and everything. So all in all this machine is in "good order". Just needs cleaned up and put back to work. I have big plans so I want to make sure it's right. Thank you again for your help as I do very much appreciate it. And the others who chimed in as well. I know there aren't many people that are around that know about these so I'm just trying to learn it now.

 

[Shimmy1]

Spent many an hour on a TD9 and TD14 over 30 years ago. I wish we'd have had someone tell us to switch over to gas before shutdown, because we could not keep a head on that TD9 for anything. I think my dad got every useable head casting within a 200 mile radius of here. Every Super WD9 and 650 he could find parted out we got the head.

We never cracked a head on the 14, but that thing was not much better than the 9 for pushing power.

I don't believe you are going to have much luck trying to direct start one of these engines. They hardly turn over at all, even with new batteries. When we first got the 14, the gas system was completely inoperable. The previous owners would pull it around with a tractor until it created enough heat to run on diesel, which would usually take 2-3 minutes, it wouldn't even smoke for the first minute. I would not even consider using ether. The big ends of the rods are wider than the piston bore, so the pistons have to come out the bottom. Will NOT be a fun job when the rings are all busted to hell from the ether.

IMO, get the gasoline system tuned up and you will be fine. Ditch the magneto for a distributor if it hasn't been already, and hopefully you can find someone that can rebuild the carburetor. Just my $0.02.

 

[1693TA]

I liked the TD-9 as it was a light and nimble tractor the few times I borrowed one. This one had been repowered with a DT engine, (don't know size) as the owner was a school bus mechanic and they had several. It sure run good though. I welded grouser bar extensions on it and tightened up the blade a bit and it was a good little tractor.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

I liked the TD-9 as it was a light and nimble tractor the few times I borrowed one. This one had been repowered with a DT engine, (don't know size) as the owner was a school bus mechanic and they had several. It sure run good though. I welded grouser bar extensions on it and tightened up the blade a bit and it was a good little tractor.

That was another thing I was considering, a repower. Any ideas on an engine that would fit? Saw a guy that slapped a JD on a TD18. I've measured but that engine won't fit. Was like a jd466 or something. I did hear that a IH 560 would work. Haven't checked any further than what I am saying though. Also confused as to if my dozer is a pure 14 or if it has a newer engine. Some are saying so being that the intake and manifold are on opposite sides. But I have solid front running gears and one filter for fuel. I'm lost at this point just trying to make it go reliable again.

 

[Shimmy1]

That was another thing I was considering, a repower. Any ideas on an engine that would fit? Saw a guy that slapped a JD on a TD18. I've measured but that engine won't fit. Was like a jd466 or something. I did hear that a IH 560 would work. Haven't checked any further than what I am saying though. Also confused as to if my dozer is a pure 14 or if it has a newer engine. Some are saying so being that the intake and manifold are on opposite sides. But I have solid front running gears and one filter for fuel. I'm lost at this point just trying to make it go reliable again.

PICS.

No way will a 560 be comparable. A 650 had the exact same engine as a TD9.

 

[WhitetailRidge]

PICS.

No way will a 560 be comparable. A 650 had the exact same engine as a TD9.

Calm down buddy lol I feel the excitement. I'm just saying what I read. But I literally just took a video like 30 minutes ago around the tractor explaining this issue. You want me to email you or message you the link so I don't violate any rules I'm not seeing?