580 Super D Headache….

[Frank Dallas]

Hello all, new to the forum and recent owner of a 1991Case 580 SD, acquired at auction sight unseen from a school district and believed the description “ Starts , Runs in Use”
Upon delivery and 2 weeks looking it over , find steam blowing out of CCV, motor full of sludge , oil filter marked 2019
Crankcase full of water , oil filter looks like Nasty Dairy Queen Blizzard ,pulled the pan, #3 cylinder leaking water/coolant upon pressure test. Pulled the head today and other than scored #3 cylinder no sign of water path into the cylinder, head looks ok, Head gasket fine, liners all look to be at the same height. Trying to figure out best solution as parts seem to be impossible to find for the Turbo motor,
Magnaflux head , block , new sleeves ??? Looking for some guidance , any help would be so appreciated , thank you.

 

[Tinkerer]

Welcome to HEF, Frank !
Turbo charged 207's are not real common and that may be why parts are hard to find for them.
How much are you willing to spend on it ? I would guess 207DT parts will be expensive.
Have you looked at the crankshaft journals ?
Camshaft too.
It it was run hard with that much water in the oil you may have very expensive rebuild .
Is #3 sleeve cracked or is it the O rings on the bottom of it that is leaking ?

 

[Frank Dallas]

I have yet to be able to determine how the coolant is entering the combustion chamber, thinking it’s either cracked head , or the sleeve. The head gasket looks good. I’m trying to figure out the most efficient way to get the machine going as I purchased it to start a new home build and the last thing I needed was another “project”. I read another post on this forum that recommended dumping the turbo motor (207 DT) and just going with a long block (207D) lnaturally aspirated.
I have found gaskets for the turbo motor, but no bearings, sleeves or pistons, I can’t imagine what CASE will want for these , if, they are even available. Thinking at this point my best option will be this route.
I have not taken the mains or rod caps off yet to examine the bearing , ironically once I was able to get the machine running it didn’t sound bad, definitely no obvious knocking. How hard the machine was used is unknown. I thought I’d be safe buying this from a school district, boy was I mislead …

 

[Tinkerer]

I don't think the heads on your turbo charged engine are compatible with a naturally aspirated long block. They have different compression ratios.
The best way to start looking for leaks is to remove the valve cover , pressurize the cooling system and carefully look for coolant.
No leaks there ? Remove the oil pan and look in the crankcase.
It isn't too late to put the head back on and find the leak.
You may not need new sleeves and pistons.
There company's that specialize in repairing cracked heads that is the problem.
Of course that may be more expensive than buying a reconditioned one somewhere.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Times like these we need Dale.!

 

[Frank Dallas]

I did do a pressure test and coolant poured outta #3 cylinder it came out so fast it was hard to distinguish if it was past the rings or from the sleeve. The motor, when running had horrible blow by and was huffing steam outta the CCV. Prior to disassemble It would idle until it overheated and stall which took about 4, 5 minutes. I’m going to see about having the head magna-fluxed. I’m hoping one sleeve and piston will get this machine running, if I can find the parts

 

[Tinkerer]

The turbo engine and NA engine uses the same sleeves.
If any or all of your pistons are damaged, you could put a NA overhaul kit in it and delete the turbo charger.
The NA engine has a slightly lower compression ratio.
I would prolly get a NA head and replace the one you have. IMHO of course !

 

[Frank Dallas]

after much frustration I’m tempted to simply install the NA pistons in this machine, I’ve learned the wrist pin, sleeve, rings are all the same. I read that the NA motor has 16.5:1 compression and the Turbo motor has 16:1 compression. I see the rods are a different part number , but other than compression I can’t imagine they are that much different I can milk the NA pistons .020 and call it good …thoughts????

 

[Frank Dallas]

(Mill the pistons) not milk! , the turbo pistons are impossible to find, they are simply not out there unless they’re sitting in a tractor parts house on the shelf somewhere and that’s not advertising.

 

[Tinkerer]

I think you are confused on the compression ratio of the 207's.
The NA pistons will not need any milling.
But, I would advise you to change the tubo head for a NA head. Reconditioned ones are not tooo
expensive. Most vendors will have a warranty on them too.

 

[Frank Dallas]

Yes, thank you , I was mistaken.
turbo motor 16.5:1
NA motor. 17:1
Bore and Stroke are identical
I’m thinking either mill the NA pistons or perhaps Stack 2 head gaskets to reduce the compression ratio. Can you explain why you suggest to swap heads to NA heads?, they look identical, thanks for helping

 

[Tinkerer]

Two head gaskets - one on top of the other would be a guaranteed failure.
one or both of them will blow out and / or leak coolant. IMHO of course.
I cannot fathom what 2 head gaskets would lower the compression to. Nor will I ever know because I wouldn't ever do it.

I'm no machinist or piston designer, so I don't have any idea what that would do to the strength of the piston.

I also don't know what the shape of the combustion chambers are in the turbo vs the NA heads.
That is why I would change heads. That way you will a normal NA engine vs a mutt that may or may not have the power a normal engine would have.

 

[Frank Dallas]

I was comparing Cylinder heads
There are two part numbers for each
Model depending on cast or drilled push rod holes.

I see the turbo Head on the Drilled version is only off by 1 number vs. the NA Drilled push rod holes head.

The cast Push rod versions are way off on part #’s

The only difference I can see is the coolant line that runs down to the filter housing on the Turbo version which is a “T” fitting vs the NA motor which has the sending unit screw directly into the head. Any help greatly appreciated

 

[Vetech63]

recent owner of a 1991Case 580 SD, acquired at auction sight unseen from a school district and believed the description “ Starts , Runs in Use”

BIG MISTAKE

I’m thinking either mill the NA pistons or perhaps Stack 2 head gaskets to reduce the compression ratio.

Don't waste your time

I see the turbo Head on the Drilled version is only off by 1 number vs. the NA Drilled push rod holes head.

Don't go by comparable part numbers.

 

[Tinkerer]

The turbo charged version has an oil cooler.
It is not a filter housing.
Comparing the heads is a waste of time.
There are differences in them that you cannot see.
I feel sorry for anyone that tried to rebuild a 207NA with turbo parts on and in it and not know it was done.
Not just the heads, but the crankshafts are completely different. OMGoodness !
There would be no end of buying parts they thought would fit and they don't.

 

[Frank Dallas]

Correct , the oil filter housing is a heat exchanger.
Has anyone done somewhat of a hybrid rebuild out there? Bore & Stroke the same, sleeves the same, rings the same , wrist pin the same, perhaps the dome is different, pin location, different,maybe beefier ?
, I dunno.
How much is .5lb of compression ratio gonna make a difference, I’m not planning on running this machine 24/7,
could I grenade this motor anymore than it already Is….

 

[Tinkerer]

You will never notice the .5lb difference in the compression ratios.
Pistons in turbo charged engines have a much heavier top to withstand the heat and pressure.
The connecting rods in a turbo are much heavier than the ones in NA's.
The crankshaft in a turbo charged engine is usually forged instead of cast like the ones that are in the NA's.
The bearing journals are a different size between the two.
If you do a proper rebuild and delete the turbo charger that engine should run for several thousand hours.
I am not encouraging you to do the conversion. That is your decision and your money going into it.
Your turbo engine should be rebuild-able.
But you need to determine where exactly the coolant leak is.
Sometimes a simple thing like a leaking expansion plug in a head is all that is wrong.

Back in the day we used to put forged crankshafts, pistons made for fuel injected motors and connecting rods that were made for FI motors in a plain ole gas engines. Then a meticulous balance job was done.
8000 to 8500 rpms was the shift point when I was drag racing.
I never had one blow up.

 

[Frank Dallas]

Thank you Tinkerer, I also have some racing experience , I ran a funny bike back in the day, turbo Kawasaki all the bells and whistles etc etc to get me scootin down the 1/4 mile @167mph. That was circa 1989 fast for that time, I have built a few turbos MCs as well as turbo VW motors over the years.

I found the coolant leak , I thought mentioned that earlier,#3 cylinder got hot, orings leaking , sleeve scored up , piston looks salvageable. I pulled the sleeve out yesterday, orings missing pieces , prior to pulling the sleeve. I had done a pressure test while the head was on and coolant poured outta #3 I also filled the block with water while the head and pan were off and watched the water drip outta the engine under no pressure.
Block looks ok where the sleeve o-rings seal, My big concern is Rods and main bearings, they are not available new.
The oil filter was dated 2019 and it was full of sludge, like a DQ Blizzard , no idea how long it had been parked or how long it was run with the crappy oil,
I dumped the oil/sludge in 4 stages , adding diesel and kerosene , running it 1-2 mins , dumping out 2-3 quarts , adding diesel/kero mixture ran 1-2 min. Then dumped it until last round pure diesel 30-45 seconds
I plan on popping out all the jugs and replacing sleeves, clean up the old pistons and put new rings into her. #3 piston was caked with soot and sludge, oil ring and middle ring was frozen into the groves, not to assume anything but I’m into it this far, might as well replace all 4 sleeves and clean the ring grooves and put new rings in it, parts I can get ….
The head looks good, I’ve already checked it with a straightedge and feeler gauge and it’s within tolerances. The motor was out of the machine at some point in time for a rebuild, it’s been repainted CAT yellow, have no history other than that. But my guess is they either pinched the o-rings or they failed to gap the piston rings correctly causing the heat in #3. The CAT yellow paint is discolored on the block radiating out from #3 cylinder towards 2 & 4. BTW radiator was leaking as well and the water pump …
So Dunno what failed first….o-rings or piston rings , but 1,2 & 4 cylinder walls look good. It’s a cluster … for sure.
Thanks for your info, all ideas and thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Tinkerer]

Good info in your update, Frank.
I only remember that you said earlier that #3 cylinder was leaking. not why or where.

If the old rod and main bearings look good. Maybe check them with some plastic-gauge?
Anyone that would paint a Case engine with Cat yellow paint probably cut the sleeve O rings when they put the sleeves in.

I found that a super thin coating of black RTV cement is super slippery for those o rings.
Gotta be meticulous about cleaning any it of up that gets squeezed out.