Biodegradeable Hydraulic Fluid

[Oxbow]

We are seeing more and more requests for biodegradable, fish friendly hydraulic oil in the solicitations that we respond to. We have a Cat 320DL that has Cat's HYDO 10w in it now. The dealer says that it is about a $10,000 process to completely change out the system to eco friendly oil, which includes some dis-assembly of cylinders and valves.

I need to get this done at some point in the future and am wondering if any of you have done this. It involves a lot more than just dumping the existing fluid, changing the filters, and replacing the fluid, but I was wondering about doing just that with a compatible oil and running it for a few hours and then repeating the process a couple of times to where the remaining original fluid amount would be negligible.

I should add that we specialize in stream channel restoration, which takes place in watersheds that have species of concern and anadromous fish populations.

Any thoughts?

 

[lantraxco]

Yup. This is the outfit you want, their products are not only biodegradable they don't float and won't sheen on water. Non-toxic to marine life. You do have to drain and fill with this, operate, drain and refill but to my knowledge they don't require any disassembly of components.

http://americanchemtech.com/products-solutions/fire-resistant-hydraulic-fluids/ucon-trident-aw/

And here's the dealer I was sent to, but this was about four years ago:

http://coastlubricants.com/products/environmentally-acceptable-lubricants/

Gear (EP) oils too, for the final drives.

And do you have any rubber tracked dumpers????

Let us know how you make out!

 

[Oxbow]

Thank you lantraxco! My system capacity is about 60 gallons if I remember correctly. I would probably be able to get about 45 out by draining, and even if I had to repeat this a few times it would likely be much less expensive than the labor to do it otherwise. This oil must be compatible with what is in the machine then, at least to the extent that no foaming or coagulation would occur for a short time period.

As of yet we have been able to manage without rubbertrack trucks, but I have you in the back of my mind should we need to rent some.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Oxbow]

I just requested contact from americanchemtech. Thanks again Lantraxco!:drinkup Cheers.

 

[Delmer]

If you can drain 45 gallons out of 60, then draining three times will leave you with almost 2% original fluid, and use 135 gallons. Is that acceptable? The process for flushing contaminated fluid is typically disconnecting the lines and flushing the old stuff out with the new, not as bad as disassembling the cylinders.

 

[lantraxco]

Here it is, vaguely remembered and finally tracked it down!

 

[Garrie Denny]

Is all this expense and time needed to keep environment groups & On site requirements covered in case of a hose,couplig etc breakage resulting in fluid loss ? How happy does a fish have to be before you eat it ?

 

[lantraxco]

Is all this expense and time needed to keep environment groups & On site requirements covered in case of a hose,couplig etc breakage resulting in fluid loss ? How happy does a fish have to be before you eat it ?

I hope you were joking... petroleum products poison plant and animal life, kill birds, etc. I for one sure don't want to be eating fish that have been exposed to fuel oil or lubricants. Unlike regular oil, this product does not float, does not create a sheen on the water, is non toxic for the most part to anything living in or near water or wetlands, and biodegrades in a hundredth the time it takes Dino oil to. I'm no tree hugger but it doesn't take much common sense to see that spilling toxic products in wetland areas teeming with all sorts of life it a bit like crapping in your kitchen, it's not right and it never should have been.

We don't use lead paints in our houses anymore, we don't use asbestos, we don't use products containing formaldehyde on our walls, this is no different. We know better now, so let's do the right thing.

 

[Oxbow]

One point to make is that the toxicity is not what is the most harmful to fish, at least in the short term, but rather the suffocation that occurs from having any oil, be it vegetable or petroleum, get into their gills.

The fact that this oil does not float would mean that dilution would occur much more quickly and be less harmful, I think.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Delmer]

Is all this expense and time needed to keep environment groups & On site requirements covered in case of a hose,couplig etc breakage resulting in fluid loss ? How happy does a fish have to be before you eat it ?

Yes. Maybe stream restoration isn't a thing in Queensland? it wouldn't suit him to be dripping oil while doing that work, and heaven forbid he blows a hose, it would be the Exon Valdez all over again.

Of course with one drain, there's still over 5% old oil, so still a big deal in the event of a leak in a stream like that.

My understanding is that this product is not an oil in any way, if there's any toxicity it would be diluted much quicker and not stick like oil does causing very visible damage.

 

[td25c]

Is all this expense and time needed to keep environment groups & On site requirements covered in case of a hose,couplig etc breakage resulting in fluid loss ? How happy does a fish have to be before you eat it ?

Yeah Garrie , From what I understand Oxbow is looking in to this at the customers request .

Give the customer what they want then send them a bill for it .

 

[lantraxco]

For government work, or work in government regulated waters/wetlands, it's becoming the standard in bid specs. If you don't meet the spec you don't get the job, it's that simple.

It's like emissions regs, I have a friend in California spent a lot of money to comply with CAARB's regulations, sold some older machines, bought some newer ones, paid for the stickies... all a complete waste of time, the majority of jobs that come up for bid require EPA Tier 3 or newer, so his iron sits and if he gets a job he has to rent. Stupid. Don't even get him started on having to park every machine on a tarp each night in case a drop of fluid should leak out on the dirt.

 

[Oxbow]

Yeah Garrie , From what I understand Oxbow is looking in to this at the customers request .

Give the customer what they want then send them a bill for it .

Unfortunately td, the "send them a bill for it" part is the problem.

On one pre-bid tour a couple of years ago the eco friendly hydraulic fluid topic came up, and my stand was that if this was to be required, then we need to know exactly what procedure would be required (just dumping the existing in the tank and replacing it, or the actual removal of lines and cycling on cylinders, etc.). At the time I rented all my equipment, and Cat quoted me about $10,000 to change a machine over, and then another $10,000 to change it back when I returned the equipment.

I am a bit surprised that the EPA hasn't mandated this in all new equipment as of yet. Fortunately, the solicitations usually specify this only for the equipment actually working in the water.

 

[td25c]

Yeah Oxbow , at the price the Cat dealer quoted for rental & changing the oil made for an easy decision to own your machine .

I like easy decisions .

If the numbers work out for yourself & customer change the oil in the 320 DL yourself and stay with the Bio oil in that machine . That's probably what I would do in that situation .

Is the 320 DL a long reach ?

 

[lantraxco]

If I changed one over, I would certainly leave it. The lubricating and temperature indexing specs appear to me to be superior to most dino oils, and if I am remembering correctly you can change on oil sample, not hours. Change the filters, lube cart the oil with 3 micron absolute filters, and you can pull water out by pulling a vacuum on the tank. This stuff will absorb a lot of water, but it essentially renders it inert and captures it in solution so it won't corrode metals. The initial cost makes me blink, but over time assuming you don't lose much for leaks, blown hoses, etc., I think it will balance out because of the extended hours between changeout. I seem to remember they have a certain lab that does the sample analysis for you since it's a specialized lubricant. Fire resistant also, might be a good thing to have in the woods. No, lol, I am not a paid endorser.

 

[td25c]

lantraxco , Any idea on cost per gallon on the bio oil ?

If it gets to be a big issue I would roll in one of these rigs . No danger of a hydro hose blowing , might drop a glob of grease in the water . LOL !

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=10773845

 

[lantraxco]

td25c, as it happens I finally located a quote from about four years ago, it was just a hair under $30 a gallon by the drum then, what's AW32 going for these days, $10 a gallon in the drum? Not sure what the current price is, mebbe Oxbow will let us know what he finds out.

It occurs to me that this PAG fluid is not supposed to mix with petroleum, not sure how definite that is, but if that's true and it's heavier than water, and dino oil is lighter than water, after you drain and fill the tank, run the machine through lots of cycles, eventually all the dino oil should end up floating at the top of the hydraulic tank, maybe? Might have to put my chemist/engineer/mad scientist hat on and figure out a way to separate the dino oil so you don't have to waste half a drum of magic elixir to make the changeover.

Yeah, nice looking old cable rig there! Not too many dragline or clam operators left that can make them dance I don't think, but they sure were magic to watch, and in my neck of the woods the old heel boom and grapple log loaders.. good operator could throw the grapple a long ways, and a log a bit further I think. Those flat smooth pads probably wouldn't work too well in a gravel stream bed though!

 

[td25c]

Thanks lantraxco , that gives a guy a good ballpark figure on cost . I'm worse than my customers when it comes to pushing a new product , first question I ask is what the heck is this going to cost ?

We also do some creek & stream work . Most of the time stay on top & reach over the side , then on creeks that are simi dry & have a solid bottom I will walk the machine up the center working both sides .

I thought that dragline looked pretty nice . We have a smaller version on truck mount unit .

 

[BSAA65LB]

I have worked with American Chemical Technologies and Quaker Chemical hydraulic fluids. Mostly for fire resistant fluids but also some environmental fluids. IMO, both are very good products.

But, do not take lightly the instructions to reduce mineral oil content to their recommended volume. That is very important in a conversion. You can end up with a serious mess if you leave too much mineral oil in the system. Some fluids will react to mineral oil and start turning to a tar like sludge in the tank. Others leech the additive packages out of mineral oil and cause a jello like foam to coat the filters and float on top of the oil in the tank.

Drain everything you can, including cylinders, lines, pumps and motor cases. Refill with enough of the new fluid to restart, slowly cycle everything, watch your tank level and keep it at the low level. Keep slowly cycling the system to just get it warm. Shut down, check your filters for sludge or foam. If clean you are ok. If not, new filters and drain about half the tank, refill, repeat. When the filters show no sign of foam or sludge, fill to normal level and you are good to go.

If you are running powered attachments (like a hammer), those need drained as well. Put ID tags on the machine and attachments about the special oil. You don't want mineral oil in the system by mistake.....ever.

 

[Mud Logger]

Biodegradable hey, Mabe one could use it for salad dressing instead of the more fattening kinds.