Bulldozer buying (used)-What do you look at (for)?

[DoubleNickel]

I am interested (maybe) in buying this 1985 Liebherr 731CL (http://armyvehicles.dk/liebherrpr731cl.htm) with 6800 hours.

I have a 2003 Terex 860 backhoe and a 2004 50hp Kubota with Loader, Back Blade, Rake and 96" Finish Mower, so I do know how to run equipment somewhat, but not a bulldozer.
I would like to have it to work on my 14 acres. The price is 20 grand. That is all I can spend as I am broke from buying the other tractors. My wife threw me out and I sleep on the porch, lol. Hey, it could happen!!
I know one should know about grousers, pins&bushings, rails, carriers rollers, track rollers, front idler height, which are Greek to me now.
To me the dozer looks good, has powershift transmission (2 levers on each side of the seat?) Inside the cab looks good. The pictures tell it all somewhat. The only thing I think to really worry about is the steering pumps or whatever else. I need some feedback on this dozer. It looks about like a John Deere 750 or so, maybe.
Does anyone know anything about this Liebherr 731CL?

I found this site this morning and it's the only forum I have come across to get answers (I think). This is my first entry, so I hope the pictures are uploaded right!!

Thank you all for some input, Sincerely, DoubleNickel




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[surfer-joe]

It looks to be in fairly decent shape for 6800 hours, never saw any rock I bet. Sprockets don't look too bad and track shoes and rollers look good from what I see in the pictures. Sheet metal and such is good. Blade looks good.

Liebherr built some pretty nice excavators and were inovators with hydrostatic drives in crawler loaders and dozers. That said, they had some seal problems in the pumps, motors and valves that were difficult and expensive to repair.

See if there is a recent undercarriage survey available. Check for any recent oil sample analysis reports, not just engine, but hydraulic and final drives as well. Check coolant for signs of oil, check oil compartments for signs of coolant. If sample reports are not available, can or would you take some samples to be tested? Your local Cat house can test them for you for the basic problems. Check out oil or other fluid leaks, look for cracks in frames and other components, particularly roller frames. Check suspension and pins/bushings that mount it to tractor frame. Check radiator condition and of course cooling system and other belts and pulleys.

Ya got to operate it for a while, get it hot and see how it does. Check engine performance and drivetrain action. Work the hydraulics, are they slow or chattering? Lots to look at and feel if you can.

But you know, for maybe fifty to a hundred hours a year on 14 acres, it may be a nice little tractor that doesn't have to work too hard. There are thousands like it all over the country from all the old manufacturers. Almost costs more to keep them around than they are worth.

I don't know what Liebherr parts and service is like now a days. Never was real good you know. Maybe a search on the net would help, might give you some idea of the present value anyway, and there might be someone specializing in old Liebherr's somewhere around this country. I haven't worked on one since, let's see, 1983 or 4 in Aspen, Colorado. I haven't even seen one in the last ten years anywhere, not even at Ritchie's.

Good Luck!

 

[DoubleNickel]

Thanks surfer-joe for the fast reply. Could the undercarriage have been replaced as it looks real good? To bad there isn't a dozerfax like carfax!!
As far as all the oil checking, I don't think I want to go that route. Just to much work. (I don't want to push the owner to much, he's been real nice) Checking for cracks is good but I thing there isn't any. I got underneath it and looked all over. No leaks anyway.
We started it and it sounded real smooth with miminal black exhaust, only black when we reved it, which is normal, just like my Terex. It moved back and forth smooth and the blade tilting was smooth.
The owner has to do a job (he just bought last summer to do this job) with it this summer on his property and I am very invited to run it when he gets all his fill to do the job. That's where I can see how it holds up under strain after a few hours of running it under load.
Again, no oil leaks anywhere as I can see and I know my oil leaks when I see them.
I take care of my equipment and your right about the hours I will be putting on it. I bought my 2003 Terex 860 backhoe new and it has 249 hours on it now and the Kubota has 79 hours, and I treat them like babys.
I don't know, sometimes you just gotta take a chance. This forum will help me alot.

Thank you very much for your reply. DoubleNickel

 

[surfer-joe]

It's a good possibility on the U/C replacement. I can't tell from the pictures if the links are SALT. (sealed & lubricated) Sprockets do show some wear so it wasn't real recent.

Sounds otherwise like you have a plan.

 

[Deas Plant]

Leibherr dozer

Hi, Double Nickel.
Welcome to the forum.

That is a neat-looking machine. If I had to have a guess, I'd bet that the running gear on that machine has been done up. It's EXTREMELY unusual to get 6,800 hours out of a set of running gear and have them still looking like that. I've NEVER managed it.

Again, if I were in a guessing mood, I'd guess that those track chains are SALT. Most manufacturers that I know of who build SALT track include the hollow in the end of each pin to protect the seal plug after the pin/bush is filled with oil.

I have never run a Liebherr anything so I'm no expert. However, my powers of observation tell me that everybody whom I have seen buy Liebherr dozers and/or track loaders no longer has them or just no longer has them out where the public can see them, i.e., not working. I think there is a message in there somewhere. I'm not sure what that message might be as I also don't know what parts and service back-up is like for them in my neck of the woods - South-east Queensland, Australia. It may be just a local thing around here. Poor service can very effectively kill off what might otherwise be a good machine.

If you don't want to upset the current owner by taking oil samples, etc., I'd ask you this one question.

"Would you rather be upset yourself later on if you buy it and it has serious hiccups?"

At least check all the fluids yourself before he starts his job and after he has completed it and note any differences that may show up in them.

Hope this helps.

 

[DoubleNickel]

1985 Liebherr PR 731CL

Thanks Deas Plant:


WOW Australia, this forum really gets DownUnder. First thing I would like to say is we miss Steve Erwin. He was the best and will always be the best. Nobody will top him. I can say my family and I think the whole world misses him.


That's what I thought about the undercarriage. Looks to good to be the original. Are the links with SALT something new? I am already learning something.

O'man, the heck with the dozer having hiccups, I would develop uncontrollable hiccups. That would be a nightmare!!

I gotta admit, it looks good for 22 years old.

Sincerely, DoubleNickel

 

[Wulf]

Are the links with SALT something new? I am already learning something

Wow... yes it looks in great shape :thumbsup

SALT is an acronym for sealed and lubricated track. The cavities between the bushings and pins are lubricated with a heavy oil and unless there is severe impact/loading between the pin and bushing causing galling, or the seals leak there will be very little internal wear (often called stretch) between the pins and bushings.

Most dozers are equipped with SALT links, smaller excavators generally use a sealed track (not lubricated).

I would agree that them looking like that after 6800 hrs in use is pretty unlikely.

 

[Deas Plant]

Animal handlers, oil samples and hiccups.

Hi, DoubleNickel.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about Steve Irwin being missed. While I do think he did a lot of the stuff that did with animals in a rather 'showman' fashion, he certainly knew his stuff. By 'showman' fashion, I mean that he disturbed or taunted many of the animals beyond what I believe was a reasonable need. In saying that, I'm not necessarily putting him down because I FREELY admit that he did know his stuff. And he did things the way he did for a reason, to get the various critters to exhibit certain behaviours. My point is that he could have told his audience of those behaviours and jeft it at that, avoiding upsetting the critters.

However, we have another bloke DownUnder whom I think is every bit as good as Steve Irwin when it comes to dispensing information, dealing with animals and entertaining while doing it, although in a very different way. He doesn't have Steve Irwin's 'pizzazz' and over-the-top, bouncing-off-the-walls energy. Instead, he is much more matter-of-fact, down to earth and direct. His name is Rob Bredl, otherwise known as 'the Barefoot Bushman'. He also handles snakes out in the wild, but very often without them getting aggravated or aggressive.

I also wouldn't want to bet that you've heard the last of the Irwin family either. Steve and Terri's 8 year old daughter, Bindi, shows a fair bit of promise with animals too and doesn't seem to be bothered much by being in front of the public or the cameras.

There is always the possibility that it could be in the current owner's best interests too for you to take oil samples and have them tested. If there is some major problem lurking there and it show in the tests before it becomes a 'Major', he would have the chance of getting it fixed early and quite possibly at less expense. If, as you said in your earlier posts, he hasn't started his job yet, he probably knows little if anything more about the condition of the machine than you do.

Many people have severe attacks of 'hiccups' some time after they have purchased a 'new' second-hand machine. There is always a reason why the previous owner is selling it. Some folks are just more up-front about their reasons for selling than others.

Having said that, I also have to admit that it would be some sort of gross over-capitalisation to buy a NEW dozer to work on your 14 acres - - - unless you just happen to be Bill Gates and then you could buy whatever you d**n liked.

 

[DoubleNickel]

Hi: Deas Plant,

Got ya on Steve Erwin, you have to have showmanship to make it big time. I checked google on Rob Bredl (Barefoot Bushman), he's right up there too. My kids watch Steve on Animal Planet all the time. I think it's the way he died that shocked us all.

Bill Gates I am not. I'm just a speck of sand on the is animal planet that spent to much money on the 2 tractors that I already have. That's what the wife tells me!! lol, So a new dozer is out of the question.

You are exactly right about the owner of this dozer. I prob know more about the machine than he does. (which I don't know much) He said the dozer blade didn't float. Well I checked around and you have to do 2 things to make it float, so I called him and told him and he was suprised to here that. Like I said he only bought it to do the job on his land and then planned to sell it. Hmm, so he says? He is a mechanic and he also sounds honest. He has a small shop behind his house, so he buys and sells. Checking through the internet, I know where he bought it.

I have prob 3 to 4 months to find more about this machine through this forum, maybe. I just found out on how to put a signature on the bottom of each post, so it's easy to see the picture on what I'm talking about. The first post of this thread has all the pictures

Sincerely, DoubleNickel

 

[Steve Frazier]

It would probably be a better idea to put a link to this thread in your signature than to the photos, that way prospective replies will be all in one place and they can see what has already been discussed.

 

[DoubleNickel]

How's dat rofessor Steve. "I'm learning, with a little help from my friends".:usa

 

[DoubleNickel]

How's dat rofessor Steve. "I'm learning, with a little help from my friends".:usa

I mean "I can get by with a little from my friends" :IMOThis is the bestest forum going!

 

[lars]

With buying a Liebherr you're biggest problem is going to be parts. Not only now but five or 10+ years into the future. I suggest you call your dealer (not sure who carries parts for Liebherr) and price some parts and check the availability as well. You may find that you can get what you need and the price is ok or you may find that you can't get anything or it may take a long time to get some stuff. Do some prying if you can. Your dealer may have some good insight on the situation. I'm sure there are some guys here that can suggest what to look up as I don't know too much about what goes wrong with dozers.

I think you can't go wrong with an older Deere or Cat. You would need some more opinions but a good used Case may be a steal for farm work.

Deere 750B
Deere 850
Deere 850
Case 1450
Cat D6C

Of course you could try to convince your wife that for a little more you can get a used D9. "But honey, it's a D-niiiiiine! Pleeeease!"

 

[DoubleNickel]

Yup lars, been looking at them before you posted them. The Liebherr I'm talking about came from that dealer. They both look good.:spongebob

There is a dealer 40 miles away that I will visit, as I called them about the steering pumps. I don't know if they are a Liebherr dealer. You can talk only so much on the phone, but a replacement pump is 13 grand each.



Deere 750B
Case 1450

Thanks for the insight, Sincerely, DoubleNickel

 

[OzDozer]

The early Liebherr dozers such as this model, are a disaster. I even had a Liebherr salesman admit to me, that they were the biggest problem machines that Liebherr ever built.

The Liebherr excavators are very good machines, but their dozers are something you need to back away from, holding out a cross, if one ever comes near you.
The final drives are exceptionally weak, and break down on a regular basis. Their hydrostatic transmission is complex, costly, and suffers from the basic 'hydrostatic transmission in dozers', problems of overheating, and sluggish power transmission to the tracks.

If you think you're broke now .. it will be nothing compared to what you'll be, if you buy that Liebherr. It will keep you poor.
In Australia, it's virtually impossible to sell these machines, used, and anytime they appear for sale, they are 50% the price of any other comparable size crawler.
Put on your running shoes, and run as far and fast as you can.

Even if you found an old wrecked Cat .. and had to completely rebuild it from a rusty, worn-out wreck .. you'd be so far in front, compared to owning a Liebherr dozer, it wouldn't be funny. Don't touch it with a 40' pole.
Govts buy crap like this, because they don't know what a good crawler looks like, let alone know what to buy .. plus, they have unlimited funds to keep patching up bad model machines. Run away screaming ..

 

[DoubleNickel]

WOW OzDozer:

I may be getting a better and different picture? Anyone else out there with comments like OzDozer?

Thank you OzDozer for your honesty.

Sincerely, DoubleNickel

 

[OzDozer]

DN - I didn't mean to rain on your parade, but as an obvious newbie to crawlers, you have the potential to be a prime sucker for someone to unload an unsaleable machine onto.

The tractor has obviously had a lot of money spent on rebuilding it, as the undercarriage is in excellent condition for the machine hours. However, the drivetrain is a big unknown factor. If a major part fails, such as a final drive, or a hydro pump or motor, you will be up for huge $$ .. and there's a high possibility of that happening within a short space of time, under your ownership.

The fact that the tractor of that size is for sale at $20K, is enough to make any reasonable person suspicious. It indicates that most knowledgable tractor people won't even give it a second glance.

However .. if you're happy to risk your $20K .. and you only need a 'play tractor', for light work .. and you only want to do 100 hrs a year ... AND ... you're prepared to write off your entire investment, if a major component of the machine blows, within 200-300 hrs ....... well, you might as well buy it.

I've seen people do this before .. with dreadful things such as Belarus tractors, and other unreliable junk machines. They are happy to risk their outlay in its entirety, and write the whole amount off, after a relatively short period, because they only need to do light work, and only need to use the machine on a sporadic basis.

If it was me, though .. I'd rather buy an older Cat, that has a known high reliability factor .. good parts availability .. and good resale, when I need to quit it. The Liebherr's only resale value, after it's in your hands, is whatever the scrap price is currently bringing in your area ..
Good luck with your decision.

 

[Steve Frazier]

You guys from down under are my kind of people!! You lay your cards on the table with no BS, take 'em or leave 'em! That's the way I've lived my life as well. There's not a whole lot like that left in the States anymore, too many puffed up chests and the need for high boots.:throwup

 

[Deas Plant]

OzDozer said what I was hinting at.

Hi, DoubleNickel.
As I mentioned in my first post, I don't have any personal experience with Leibherr dozers or track loaders. However, as I also mentioned in my first post, NOBODY that I have seen with Liebherr dozers or track loaders is STILL using them. That was as far as I was prepared to go because of my lack of PERSONAL experience with them.

OzDozer has come out and bluntly stated what I was alluding to. He may well have seen more of these jiggers than I have and so be able to form a more definite judgement. Having met OzDozer, I respect his opinion in such matters and even more so because it is borne out by my own observations.

'Le ball' is now in your court. Personally, I'd be looking for something that has a better track record. And, depending on exactly what you want to do with it, you may want to consider a track loader with a 4-in-1 bucket and rippers. They are a FAR more versatile machine than a dozer and will be working at all sorts of jobs around your small property while a dozer would be sitting in the shed doing nothing.

 

[DoubleNickel]

1985 Liebherr PR 731CL

Folks, I got my running shoes on and I am gone. I started running last night and haven't stoppped yet like "Forest Gump":waving

I am gonna stick to stand transmission dozers for pushing power as my DownUnder friends are Super.

A Track Loader, Hmm. I did't even think of them. Could be some interest there.

I have been looking at this Liebherr for 8 months with concern and through this forum, I'm gonna run for some time!!!

You guys are the best and this forum is the greatest!!!!

Sincerely, DoubleNickel


PS: I got lots of time to buy a Dozer.