Cat 416 Backhoe clutch question

[Clownaround]

Hi, I have recently removed the clutch in my 1987 416 Backhoe. I took the friction disks out as well as the metal smooth plates between the friction disks. My question is are the (12) smooth metal plates a wear item? Or should I just replace the (12) friction disks. I am assuming they should be replaced but they look so new and unworn.

Thanks

 

[Nige]

Post a Serial Number I can possibly come up with the specification for the thickness.

Generally if the metal separator plates are still flat with no signs of heat such as distortion by twisting or are blue with the ffects of clutch slip then they would possibly be suitable to re-use. I would suggest to ask the price before going to too much effort deciding whtether or not they are fit to go again.

 

[edgephoto]

Lay them on a piece of glass to make sure they are flat and if there are no groves or wear noted you can reuse them. As @Nige mentioned look for discoloring from overheating. Also if they are not crazy expensive just replace them. Do you really want to do this job again if there is an issue.

Typically there are called "frictions" and "steels". Might help with the parts guys. You might save big with aftermarket over Cat OEM but make sure you get good aftermarket stuff. I am sure the guys here can help with a referral.

 

[Clownaround]

Great info! I will check them out in more detail and lay them on something flat. I know the CAT dealer wants about $500 for all 12. However I am sure I could find some aftermarket plates cheaper. Honestly just trying to get the machine up an running again without spending a fortune. But also I don't want to forget anything important. Upon opening the transmission, all the gears look good and as of right now only addressing the clutch disk for forward and reverse.
I had lost reverse on the machine. Only one friction disk out of 6 on the reverse side still had material on it. Which makes sense. And three disks out of 6 the forward side had material missing.
Serial# 5PC00575
Should I change the transmission pump out?
Should I change the torque converter out?

Thanks so much guys!

 

[Vetech63]

Should I change the transmission pump out?
Should I change the torque converter out?

I would. The contamination from the friction discs wear has run through both. You will never clean the convertor enough unless its the type you can unbolt and separate.

 

[Clownaround]

That makes sense....I will look into swapping those out.
Here is some of the material literary sliding off the friction plates as I pulled them one by one out of the reverse side. Lots of material over the years in the filter screen on the bottom of the transmission as well. Does this stuff have a shelf life and just deteriorate after 36 years?

 

[Nige]

Thickness of one new 9G8542 or 6Y7929 Friction Disc - 0.078 to 0.084"
Thickness of one new 6T9194 Plate ... 0.070 to 0.074"

Thickness of six new discs and six new plates for forward and reverse clutch - 0.885 to 0.947"

 

[Clownaround]

Thank you Nige!

 

[Clownaround]

Since I will be refilling the transmission with new fluid. Do you guys recommend anything other than CAT brand fluid? Or is it best to stick to OEM?

 

[Nige]

Since I will be refilling the transmission with new fluid. Do you guys recommend anything other than CAT brand fluid? Or is it best to stick to OEM?

Do you have an O&M Manual to see the original fluid spec.?
If not you really should get one. They are only $50 or so and contain far more than just fluid info.
OEM-branded oil is not absolutely necessary, oil that meets OEM spec is............

Genuine Cat manual covering your Serial Number - https://www.ebay.com/itm/374631805286
You need a paper one because your model is so early. I couldn't find it on CD.

EDIT: Here are paper and CD options. https://www.servicemanualpro.com/?page=Products&searchbox=5PC00575

 

[Clownaround]

Thanks Nige, I do not. Thanks for that link!

 

[Nige]

The eBay link just shows how proud some sellers can be of used 20+ year-old manuals. You can get a new one for less...!

TBH if it was me I would get a CD unless you really want to pay the extra for a paper copy

 

[Clownaround]

Well guys I am buttoning up the transmission. I came to an area of question and was reaching out to see if anyone else has been stuck on this step in regards to shims on the backend of the transmission. Dont know if I am over thinking this part but...When I put the shims on as I pulled them off the machine they stick up past the face of the transmission housing ever so slightly. The manual says to measure distance from bearing cup to face of transmission then subtract .05mm...so would the shims actually be recessed under the face of the transmission housing by .05mm? Thanks so much guys!

 

[Clownaround]

Here is another angled view ro see the recess between the face of transmission and the bearing cups.

 

[Clownaround]

Anybody have an educated guess on this one? I'm not sure why the spacers would be any different than when I took the machine apart but just making sure.

 

[Nige]

Anybody have an educated guess on this one? I'm not sure why the spacers would be any different than when I took the machine apart but just making sure.

Reading the assembly procedure what they are wanting is 0.002" of clearance between the stack of shims and the top of the housing. If the shims on yours are protruding above the housing that's all going to nip up tight when you assemble it.

Are you using the same bearings.? If you are have you been careful to drive them in all the way or is there any chance there is a speck of contamination underneath meaning it has not gone fully home.?

If you have used a new bearing it's highly unlikely that the exact same pack of shims that were there with the old bearing will work with the new one.

 

[Clownaround]

Thanks Nige, I replaced the two bearings on either side of the forward and reverse clutch disc housing because they are destroyed upon removal and I needed to rebuild and replace that part. (I don't think that would have effected the cup bearing height on the other two shafts) However I did not touch or change out the bearings on the two (output)? shafts in question. So they should have stayed the same spec. I did clean everything out very well so I don't think foreign material is causing the issue. However I guess there is always a chance of that and worth taking a second glance. I did try to gently tap the bearing cups down as far as they would go but they didn't seem to budge. Everything is rotating freely. I will take a second look at the issue an take some measurements with a caliper and try to get the spacer stack as close as I can to .05mm below the surface. Thanks again for your help!!

 

[Nige]

I did try to gently tap the bearing cups down as far as they would go but they didn't seem to budge.

Smack 'em a bit harder would be my suggestion.

 

[Clownaround]

Will do!

 

[Nige]

If the bearing doesn't move at all you may have to go back in again to try to find out why it's not going back to the same place as it was before.