Cat steel bogie wheels

[LanceNE]

Have a question for all you MTL drivers...
Looking at putting Bair steel bogie wheels on a 297C.
I put steel idler wheels on about 6 months ago and they are working great.
The conditions we are in are extreme and the composites are getting demolished. Has anyone had any luck with the steel bogies? I'm not worried about the ride and the steep conditions we are in dictate that we stay with the MTL and not the CTL.

 

[74inchShovel]

Are you sure they are steel? I think they are a aluminum alloy, the set I bought was aluminum, for sure. I found them a bit pricey, they were not loaded up with bearings and seals and dust caps, all of which had to be ordered from ASV. As far as chunking out, they gave an improvement, but the area I have problems with is the seal on the inside and in this respect they were no better. I got 270 hrs out of a set, and have got 250-750 hrs out of factory wheels. If you are not having bearing problems, they might suit your needs. Keep in mind this is on a RC 30, that gets run hard.

 

[Digdeep]

Why buy from Bair? I talked to a guy up here with a PT80 with front and rear steel wheels and he got them from his ASV dealer as an option. Why don't you contact your nearest ASV dealer to see if they have them. At least you'll know thye were built and designed by factory engineers.

I do know of a few people up here that have taken the "Bair plunge" with results not as good as they had hoped- steel wheel failures and steel wheels that cut the lugs and crushed rock into the body of the tracks ruining the tracks.

I think that if ASV would have thought steel rollers would work on all of their tracks they'd have them by now. Especially since they'd have to be a lot cheaper to make compared to their rubber wheels.

 

[LanceNE]

To my knowlegde, a C model MTL are all Cat built and not ASV built like the B models. If ASV has steel bogie wheels...then maybe they are having problems also.
We were having such problems with rear idlers, particularly inner ones, we did go with steel which as of last spring, Cat started supplying. Haven't had problems with steel idlers cutting or causing track issues. Cat was reluctant to put them on as there might be some cutting with steel against rubber. Cat still will not supply steel bogie wheels, which baffles me which they know there is a problem with idlers and they won't fix the bogie wheel issue. Thanks for the input. Wish Cat was a little quicker about getting off their butt and fixing this issue. I do believe they will eventually or they will lose a lot of customers due the to the cost of replacing under carriage and tracks.

 

[Digdeep]

To my knowlegde, a C model MTL are all Cat built and not ASV built like the B models. If ASV has steel bogie wheels...then maybe they are having problems also.
We were having such problems with rear idlers, particularly inner ones, we did go with steel which as of last spring, Cat started supplying. Haven't had problems with steel idlers cutting or causing track issues. Cat was reluctant to put them on as there might be some cutting with steel against rubber. Cat still will not supply steel bogie wheels, which baffles me which they know there is a problem with idlers and they won't fix the bogie wheel issue. Thanks for the input. Wish Cat was a little quicker about getting off their butt and fixing this issue. I do believe they will eventually or they will lose a lot of customers due the to the cost of replacing under carriage and tracks.

All C Series undercarriages are still designed and built by ASV (now Terex). Anyone telling you differently is yanking your chain. You can even see the ASV part number and name on the bearing housing castings on your bogie wheels. I can't speak to why ASV offers the option, but CAT won't. Good luck.

 

[LanceNE]

All C Series undercarriages are still designed and built by ASV (now Terex). Anyone telling you differently is yanking your chain. You can even see the ASV part number and name on the bearing housing castings on your bogie wheels. I can't speak to why ASV offers the option, but CAT won't. Good luck.

....not sure whether to be irritated, embarassed or both....can't tell you how many times I was told or better yet "yanked" by someone from Cat, telling me that the C's were all Caterpillar. In fact, when I ordered the 287C last year, that was their big selling point "Cat is on their own, not working with ASV". To be quite honest, although not around them a lot, the ASV's I had been around, I was plenty happy with. Anyhow, thanks for enlightening me....we don't see many ASV's around here and imagine my surprise when I looked online and the PT80's had the exact same undercarriage as my 287C. And, the undercarriage on the ASV100 looks awfully familiar, such as what I have on my 297C. Cat is selling steel idler wheels for front and back now....but I bet if I look hard enough, they are probably made by ASV.

On another note, being an owner/operator and running my tail off, I don't seem to have enough time to do research. Has anyone heard of a good after market track ....for that same series skid steers? Our conditions are pretty tough and the tracks are getting shredded. I am trying out a 262C with a logren (spelling?) type track. It is a lot rougher but it looks like the tracks are going to hold out. Just wondered if there is a thicker track out there that will go on the 287 or 297.

 

[westphal82]

My 277B is at the Cat dealer getting the right side undercarriage checked right now. 16 hours on a brand new set of tracks and the right side is already at max on the tensioner. Track is still too loose and pops when a load is put on that side. I've only had the machine for 16 hours and don't know much about inspecting the asv system. I saw the BAIR site and was thinking about upgrading at least the front and rear idlers to steel. Can anyone tell me the pros or cons of this? Should I contact my local ASV dealer and get them through them instead? I'm still waiting to see what cat finds wrong, I didn't have time to mess with it before going back to work. (rotaional 6 weeks on 3 weeks off at a remote oilfield) but wanted the machine looked at while I was gone so I wasn't thinking about what "it could be" for 6 weeks. Any advice, input, experiances would be appreciated. I use this machine for personal use only so...
Thanks

 

[dumass]

has anyone here bought tracks from motion dynamics, global warehouse, trackworks, dyne, camoplast or any others. I,m buying new tracks for a 247 and really don't want to be doing it again in 6 months. Anything you guy's could comment on would be helpful. Sorry for changing the subject here, but this is the only way I could post anything in here. thx.

 

[westphal82]

my dominion tracks had 16 hours on them and they are now trashed. broken cords, broken off lugs one is stretched so bad it can't be used.

 

[Digdeep]

has anyone here bought tracks from motion dynamics, global warehouse, trackworks, dyne, camoplast or any others. I,m buying new tracks for a 247 and really don't want to be doing it again in 6 months. Anything you guy's could comment on would be helpful. Sorry for changing the subject here, but this is the only way I could post anything in here. thx.

I know guys up here who tried the McLaren and the DRBs on their RC60 and PT50s (from Larry Lug) and the Mclarens aren't even worth mentioning and the guy with the PT50 couldn't even get the first set of DRBs on because they were too short so they sent him a second set. The second set was really tight, but he got them on with a porta power. The lugs misfed from the start and he got about 550hrs out of them. His first set of original ASV tracks had just over 1700hrs and now he's back to original OEM tracks. I always say that you get what you pay for. Of course the guys that sell for the aftermarket guys will come on here and swear by the brand they are pushing.

 

[dumass]

yeah..... I'm kinda thinking to agree with you dig. It's just the thought of that extra thousand or fifteen hundred bucks leaving home without me that bothers a bit. I think I'm going to give the dealer a call tomorrow and see what they say. thx. But, seriously though; 16 hours on a new set of tracks? That's got to be a new record! I hope you got your money back. I just can,t afford to go down that road. good luck and thx. I'll drop back in here and let you know what the dealer says.

 

[westphal82]

But, seriously though; 16 hours on a new set of tracks? That's got to be a new record! I hope you got your money back.

I recently purchased the machine, it had under 1500hrs on it when I got it. The tracks were put on before the machine got shipped to me. It was part of the deal. Install a new set of tracks and inspect the undercarraige before shipping me the machine. I was told nothing was wrong with it when the new tracks were installed.
I worked the machine for 16 hours then hauled it to the dealer because I was having problems with one of the tracks. I now have pictures of 16 hour old tracks with wires sticking out and a several half torn off drive lugs.
I'm still working on this. The guy i got the machine through said "warrentee? theres no warrentee on those tracks"
Awesome, thanks dude i'll be walking funny the rest of the year over this one.ointhead

 

[toomuchtime]

Lance just out of curiosity why didnt you buy a 289 or 299 with the steel undercarrage? That is 100% cat designed and tested by the d4 group. A good cat salesman will tell you the mtl undercarraige is designed for turf and softsoil the 9 series machines should hold up to whatever you throw at them.

 

[Digdeep]

A good cat salesman will tell you the mtl undercarraige is designed for turf and softsoil the 9 series machines should hold up to whatever you throw at them.

Toomuchtime...no offense, but a good CAT salesman would sell you an 7 or a 9 series and tell you how to get the best value and life out of your undercarriage regardless of whether it is the ASV undercarriage or the new undercarriage with steel rollers and Bridgestone track. If he is telling you that the ASV undercarriage is only good for turf he must have been under a rock for the last 10 years while thousands have been sold into all applications (not always perfect).

I may be biased because I own a RC50, but I can assure you that I don't just run the machine on turf and softsoil and my tracks last longer than any Bridgestone I've experienced either selling Bobcat machines for over 8 years, on customers machines operating in my area, or based on direct feedback from my buddies still selling for Bobcat, Case or CAT.

A crappy salesman will tell you anything to get an order for a machine without having to sell differentiation or features and benefits...such as they are only good on turf....or the D4 group tested CAT's undercarriage. If you believe the D4 comment from him I can convince you that it never gets below freezing up here in Wisconsin, it stays a balmy 80 degrees year round and the snow you see on the Weather Channel is only an optical illusion.

While I think the new 9 series machines are nice, the tracks won't last any longer than those on Bobcat or the other brands (this is based from my own observations up here so far and from two salesmen I know very well that work for the local CAT dealer Fabco), and the rollers are actually imported from South Korea from a company that CAT bought over a year ago to allow them to put less expensive components on their track machines in Asia.

 

[LanceNE]

Toomuchtime...
The CTL may last longer, but they won't stay on.
Cat CTL will not stay on in the conditons we are in. Owned a 279.....tested 299. They have issues with derailing. When there is weight on the front and going down hill, slack developes. Been going round and round with cat for the last 8 months. Cat mech. came out when I was testing the 299 6 months ago. Said this was the problem (the 299 was derailing on a skid trail that was used 100's of time with a 297). Cat rep came out last month and finally admitted there was derailing problems with the CTLs.... when you go down hill and turn. Was told that alot of cat customers don't go downhill and turn. That did not sit to well with me!!!!
Cat did step up and replace an undercarriage on our 297C..... put steel idlers on the front and back. I personally think should have steel bogies also and sacrifice the track.
At least would not be replacing tracks and undercarriages!
As far as testing......don't get me started!!!! Instead of telling me how brilliant Cat engineers are (the Cat rep that is), I would have be more impressed if I was told all involved in the 9 track series had been fired!!! 1 Cat Mech. could have told them where the problems were going to be. And if I hear one more time how the tracks were tested on treadmills I'm going to flip out!!!
The rest of the machine is great....no complaints. But if the wheels fall off my Ford.... it doesn't really matter how the rest of the truck is.
I don't mean to sound too hard on Cat (I don't believe another machine would do much better in the conditions we are in), but track issues have cost us dearly......

 

[toomuchtime]

Digdeep my salesman told me the asv undercarriage was not designed for hardpack soil or rock. It shines in muddy conditions and on turf. I owned a 287b and understand it. Its is not opinion its fact. There is always a proud asv owner somewhere willing to stick there chin up and say this is not true and that they have 1000+ hours on there machine and its great. I understand it but its not the norm. If you are very good at maintenance get on your hands and knees with a pressure washer and operate it correctly you will get 1000+ out of it but thats not realistic for the average company. ASV serves a niche market but for the average operator who operates in a variety of conditions it is not the best choice imo.

The c series undercarriage was designed or influenced by the d4 group. I know this for fact. Is it perfect? no is any machine not yet. in my humble opinion the 9 series machines are closest overall yet produced by any skid company.

My wife works for our local utility specifically in the grading dept. She is directly responsible for cutting checks on new equipment and repairs. they have 11- 9 series machines with 1000 hrs plus still on the same tracks. Most of the operators are dummies to say the least.

I learned along time ago not to base my opinions on just my thoughts, my opinions are based on fact, research and first hand expereince.


Lance: When the 9 series first came out they had a few issues that cause the tracks to derail. If you would like the cat internal break down of the problems and how to fix it pm i can send you the powerpoint presentation. One major problem on the first machines was at the final drive motor, the mounts were slightly bending and that was the leading cause of derailment the 2010 models they gusseted everything on the undercarriage to fix the issue. If you are running in extremely rough hilly terrain or crossing logs rocks etc They have released a narrow track option that is about about 2.5 inchs narrower. My cat dealer put about 500 hrs on a machine to try and get it derailed and could not.

 

[LanceNE]

Toomuchtime: I'm not a salesman or a politician. I'm not here to bash Cat and like I said before the rest of the machine has hit a hundred. Why do you have a powerpoint presentation on the "few issues" that cause the Cat 9 series to derail?
It is not my opinion that there are issues on the 9 series derailing.... we are way past that.
My problem is that Cat did not address the problem before production and has been slow to admit the problem. I have no idea what the d4 group is.....dumbass 4 ?... but it should not be a bragging point for sure. If the added gusset was the fix.... why is Cat still saying they are looking at ways to fix it! Many, many people believe that the narrower track is not the answer either because it is the slack in the track that is causing alot of the problem. We don't grade dirt..... and if we did the ASV track system would hold up very well.
Go ahead and slap that salesman you have been talking to..... there are many operators (my self included) that get over a 1000 hours on ASV tracks on varied terrain and I very rarely pressure wash the tracks out. And the ASV tracks stay on...... a real big plus. Our terrain is extreme.... steep, rocky and stumps. IMO Cat should still promote the ASV track system to their customers who are working in extreme terrain.... but with all steel undercarriage (bogies and idlers) and sacrifice the track. Or design a track that could take more abuse.
The best thing for my operation would be that the 9 series problems are fixed.... until that happens we will continue using the 7 and might go to the VTS system.

 

[Digdeep]

Digdeep my salesman told me the asv undercarriage was not designed for hardpack soil or rock. It shines in muddy conditions and on turf. I owned a 287b and understand it. Its is not opinion its fact. There is always a proud asv owner somewhere willing to stick there chin up and say this is not true and that they have 1000+ hours on there machine and its great. I understand it but its not the norm. If you are very good at maintenance get on your hands and knees with a pressure washer and operate it correctly you will get 1000+ out of it but thats not realistic for the average company. ASV serves a niche market but for the average operator who operates in a variety of conditions it is not the best choice imo.

The c series undercarriage was designed or influenced by the d4 group. I know this for fact. Is it perfect? no is any machine not yet. in my humble opinion the 9 series machines are closest overall yet produced by any skid company.

My wife works for our local utility specifically in the grading dept. She is directly responsible for cutting checks on new equipment and repairs. they have 11- 9 series machines with 1000 hrs plus still on the same tracks. Most of the operators are dummies to say the least.

I learned along time ago not to base my opinions on just my thoughts, my opinions are based on fact, research and first hand expereince.


Lance: When the 9 series first came out they had a few issues that cause the tracks to derail. If you would like the cat internal break down of the problems and how to fix it pm i can send you the powerpoint presentation. One major problem on the first machines was at the final drive motor, the mounts were slightly bending and that was the leading cause of derailment the 2010 models they gusseted everything on the undercarriage to fix the issue. If you are running in extremely rough hilly terrain or crossing logs rocks etc They have released a narrow track option that is about about 2.5 inchs narrower. My cat dealer put about 500 hrs on a machine to try and get it derailed and could not.

I'm happy you have found the machine that works best for you.Salesmen say "lots of things", especially when it benefits them or sells another machine. I should know I saw them come and go during the 8 years that I sold Bobcats (over 250 of them CTLs) up here in WI. I still know many guys still selling in the industry for CAT (of which they would agressively contradict your 1000 hour claims on the 9 series), Bobcat, Deere and Case so I have a pretty good conduit of steady information.

I think you need to understand that (no offense to CAT) using the 287B as a shining example of your experience with the ASV undercarriage and how it performs in multitudes of underfoot conditions isn't exactly drawing on the best example. As a matter of fact, other than the 257, it is the prime example of what happens when you try to slap somebody eles's technology onto a machine without thinking of the ramifications.

I've been around long enough to see enough ASV undercarriages reach well past the 1000 hour mark (in lots of different applications other than mud and sand) to think it's more the norm other than a rarity, and its a rare day when "I crawl on my hands and knees" to wash it out.

As far as the D4 group developing the undercarriage, I can't disprove your source, but I definitely hope it's not your salesman, and I know for a fact that the rollers on the 9 series are made in South Korea as I stated earlier. I also know that derailments with the 9 series have been a problem since their launch along with the fact that if not properly tensioned the track teeth will wear grooves in the front torsion axle housing and destroy the bolt heads that hold the front torsion axle to the undercarriage frame. This is straight from one of the service techs at the local CAT dealer Fabco. Narrow track option has not fixed the derailment, but it does improve traction, provinganother point that the machine has wasted track on the ground that doesn't provide any other advantage other than flotation (why would they offer a narrow track over a 18" track for more traction?:beatsme

I know we will agree to disagree so this will be my last post on the matter and I wish you the best of luck with your new machine.

 

[Bison]

So,what factorie in Korea makes these ASV/Cat bogie wheels (Plastic or Aluminum),it would be nice to get them factorie direct instead of leavin all that money to the dealers.
That's getting old real quik at 85 pop a piece for just the 10" rollers.

I found the tracks in India and China for 1/3 of the price here in Canada,even with freight and such added in its less than half.

 

[jrtraderny]

So,what factorie in Korea makes these ASV/Cat bogie wheels (Plastic or Aluminum),it would be nice to get them factorie direct instead of leavin all that money to the dealers.
That's getting old real quik at 85 pop a piece for just the 10" rollers.

I found the tracks in India and China for 1/3 of the price here in Canada,even with freight and such added in its less than half.

Cat owns the Korean factory.
jr