Cat to the Mat

[LanceNE]

I know there has been quite a bit of talk about Cat's CTL issues. Just venting a little bit about what we've found out.
- bought a 279C two years ago and immediately had derailing issues on extreme conditions. A side note, Cat advertised the CTL's to replace the MTL's on severe conditions. Cat said it was unheard of that these machines would derail....there were no issues, it was our driving, it was our terrain, it was the color of underwear we wore, anything but there being an issue. But, they recommend putting a double idler on for severe conditions that might require a double idler.... a very embarassed salesman came back the next day and explained that the double idler kits were back ordered six months...even though nobody was having this issue. After losing tracks on the average of every ten hours, on terrain where MTL's were not losing tracks, I got rid of the 279C.
- flash forward a year later to a project in the southwest and we are having issues with the MTL's plastic components breaking. I won't even get into that, but again it was recommended that we use the CTL's. They brought a 299C that was supposedly had Cat's latest modifications.....first track came off in one hour. Sales rep was so disgusted sent a service truck out the next day to follow me around to see what was going on. Mechanic was also disgusted.....mentioned how obviously wasn't an operator or mechanic involved in the designing.
- discussed these issues with two regional Cat reps. When one Cat rep was yapping on how intelligent the engineers for Cat are.... I informed him they couldn't be that intelligent if they couldn't see the problems the CTL's were having before they sent them out. I was baffled by his reply.... Cat engineers knew there was going to be some derailing problems in extreme conditions but thought they could fix them on the go. What a bunch of garbage. Telling us as customers it is our driving or terrain when supposedly their engineers knew there was a problem.
To prove that it is not our driving or terrain..... had a Bobcat T320 out here on the exact same terrain the 299C had issues with, did not lose one track. I'm not here to sell Bobcats, and as an owner/operator I could go on about things that weren't right either on a Bobcat....the bottom line which I tried to explain to Cat is if your tracks fall off, or the undercarriage is made of plastic components and the uptake breaks you...how good the rest of the machine may be is negated.

On another note.... the terrain we are in is extreme. We don't expect things to be perfect, but a company that it not honest with their customers, I have serious issues with.

 

[markshr151]

I love doing business with any company that acts like I am in portent to there success.

 

[Stick Pro]

Cat has a triple idler for the ctl machines that has solved the problem from what i here. There is a guy on these forums that has the new idler way better than the dual idler he said. When we order our next 289 I will be talking to the salesman about the triple idler.

 

[LanceNE]

I've heard mixed reviews on this forum on how well the triple idler is working. What is ironic is the sole reason why I started using Heavy Equipment forums was because Cat was not admitting to the issues on the CTL. Unfortunately, I began using the forums after I had purchased the machine. There were people on here a couple years ago saying they were having derailing problems when Cat was denying it. I wouldn't just talk to your salesman, I would ask him to put it in writing, this tends to get their attention and lets them know you know about the issues. I hope the triple idler fixes the problem. One of Cat's own mechanics which looked at the one we demo'd doubted over a year ago that the triple idler or narrower track would be the answer.
The point is that Cat had an issue, knew about it, and denied it. Cat has now tried a double idler, I believe narrower track, and a triple idler.....all to fix a problem they say does not exist.
A classic quote from one of the reps was "Cat has lots of customers that don't go on hills or in difficult terrain". Wow. Be like a Ford dealer selling a pick up to a rancher or construction contractor and telling them they sell lots of pick ups to bankers and such that never leave the pavement.
Again, the terrain we are in is extreme.....supposedly the whole selling point of the Cat CTL was extreme duty.

 

[KSSS]

CAT is bringing out a 279C for me to demo. I just got done with putting 13 hours on a CASE TR320 which I liked. Interesting about the derailing. How well did the CAT run the mulcher? Did it have any mods on it?

 

[LanceNE]

I had a 279C and we demo'd a 299C, both seemed to run the mulcher fine. Used to run an ASV100....and there is quite a bit of difference between that machine's mulching capabilities and what we see in Cat. But all in all, Cat's will run a mulcher. Also note that we are not doing fine mulching, using it mainly to treat slash to meet specs. What I noticed on the different CTL's I've driven with Cat is they are very unforgiving if you hit an object not square centered. Going over rocks, even river rock, you can hear it trying to derail. If I was testing one that they have the mods on and it isn't supposed to derail, I would put it in rocks or debris and see what it does. I'm sure all CTL's tend to want to derail, but with Cat's, there was no forgiveness, if it clicked once it was off.
The rest of the Cat machine, I never really had a problem with... a person would always like a little bigger cab and after running a T320 and seeing how fun it was (not) to get to the radiator to blow it out, I won't ever complain again about heating issues. Cat did not have the debris kit when I got them, and that is a must. There are some huge gaping holes under the cab and around the motor. I didn't like the $4000-5000 price tag they charge now so I did some hillbilly fixes. $1600 for a specialized door that basically just had a screen on it.....I thought would be fine if I got a $1500 credit for my door. We have the electronic mods which allow you to adjust the hydraulic speed of the loader and machine which is nice but I got it more for the ability to watch the temps.
Good luck!

 

[KSSS]

Blowing the radiator on 320 was my big issue with it. My 465 is easy to clean unlike the 320. I think a reversing fan would certainly help on the 320. I liked the power of that machine and the cab. The ac condensor is large and even when plugged it still kept cooling in 90 heat. The EH was well done in that machine I thought. It is really rock here, it will be interesting to see how the CAT handles the rocks.

 

[LanceNE]

On the Cat CTL, we also had pretty big issues with derailing going down hill, especially if we had weight on the nose. They blamed the weight of the bullhog, I didn't buy that since people carry a lot of heavy items, not just a bullhog. Weight on the nose caused the track to come loose even when cranked down as much as possible. If you turn at all and catch something, presto track was off.
I hear you on a reversing fan. We have a mobile chipper on site doing some field tests. Pinyon and Cedar dust is pretty fine. Immediately starting seeing heating issues on carrier radiator, chipper hydraulics and chipper engine radiators. Issue was so bad, had to stop about every 15 minutes to blow things out. They installed some reversing fans on the chipper radiators and moved the carrier radiator above the engine. So far has eliminated the heating issues. The material is fairly light so with just changing the direction of the fans helped keep things cooler.
Had one of the new Bobcats out to the field day but I'm sad to say I didn't get a chance to look at it real close. From what I hear they changed the configuration/location of the radiator and it is easier to get to.

 

[tacotory]

Not going to add much substance to the conversation here, but just want to say that I have owned JD, Cat, Bobcat and Komatsu track skids and of all of them, the 287b was BY FAR the worst of them. I couldn't sell that machine fast enough. High maintenance costs (plastic idlers?????), low power, crappy controls, etc, etc, etc. There are so many products avail in the market that are far superior to the Cat offerings in this market segment. Just my $.02.

 

[KSSS]

Not going to add much substance to the conversation here, but just want to say that I have owned JD, Cat, Bobcat and Komatsu track skids and of all of them, the 287b was BY FAR the worst of them. I couldn't sell that machine fast enough. High maintenance costs (plastic idlers?????), low power, crappy controls, etc, etc, etc. There are so many products avail in the market that are far superior to the Cat offerings in this market segment. Just my $.02.

The CAT MTL is just not durable enough for most applications. It is perfect for some applications, keep in that narrow band and guys seem to get some decent longevity out of them. However most are not able to do that, which is why after years of CTL bashing, CAT released its own CTL. I think of all the issues the MTL has, resale of the machines has to be the worst.

 

[LanceNE]

You nailed it on the head with the low resale. Couple years back when we first started having trouble with the MTL, had a machine about six months old and tried trading it in and Cat depreciated the machine 50%.....which is a strong indication that even they thought the machines were crap.....
From what one of their regional reps told me ....it was the major complaints they were having on the failures in the undercarriage components on the C model MTL's which hastened Cat's release of their CTL's. Hence relying on treadmill CTL testing and not enough actual in field testing is why they are having so many issues with the CTL's now.
I would add it seems like they are relying way too heavily on engineers and not the experts in the field.
You cannot have two lines of tracked machines fail so miserably before you start listening to the real experts.
After seeing how Bobcat's tracks stayed on in the same application, I am more convinced it is not terrain but lack in design. Again, I'm not trying to sell Bobcat, just that other companies who's CTL's can stay on in the same terrain leads me to believe the the dumb a** operator contractor was not at fault.

 

[yanmarman]

You could not give me a scatpiller or john deere,just high priced piece of junk

 

[LanceNE]

Yes it is too bad. Shouldn't be that way. We spent the extra money on Cat to try and avoid what inevitably has cost us dearly... down time.

 

[KSSS]

I never did get my 279 demo. I had a couple day window to grab it and was too busy on another project that did not require a CTL. It was a sold machine that they moving up to Montana. I think I would have been a little pissed if they were demoing out the machine after I purchased it. They have a 289 available. Not sure I want to waste my time in that. Its not similiar to the TR340 which is my other consideration. CASE now released Amics style capability on their new machines, can be down loaded onto previously sold machines. Thats a good thing especially since it is standard and not a higher priced option.

 

[Tsanch]

Hello all, I'm brand new to this forum with this being my first post. A friend of mine actually suggested I search for such a thing, go figure. Having spent ten years in the Cat dealership my blood ran mighty yellow. I was on the ground selling Cats first Skid steer loaders and sad to say yes their first entry into the MTL, ASV. I left them in 02 to work with a friend in forestry out in NM. Long story short we bought one of the first 299C's out. I also had terrible trouble with it. After a serious talk with CAT they designed this "double rear idler" for my machine. I also pointed out to them way back then the main cause is not so much the idler but the length of the steel track guide on the track itself. I gave them extensive photos, measurements and video of the cause of failure. What I did learn from all this is 1) don't buy another CAT for other than perfect clean level dirt work and 2) I developed a tool that allows me to put a derailed track on in 15 minutes. Interesting to hear about triple idlers... That's always been the problem with CAT, they are so proud that they will listen to nobody. I have a friend who just sold a new Case with the high pressure setup with a Fecon. It's only a week old but it seems to be working great so far. Looking forward to interacting more with you guys..

 

[KSSS]

Hello all, I'm brand new to this forum with this being my first post. A friend of mine actually suggested I search for such a thing, go figure. Having spent ten years in the Cat dealership my blood ran mighty yellow. I was on the ground selling Cats first Skid steer loaders and sad to say yes their first entry into the MTL, ASV. I left them in 02 to work with a friend in forestry out in NM. Long story short we bought one of the first 299C's out. I also had terrible trouble with it. After a serious talk with CAT they designed this "double rear idler" for my machine. I also pointed out to them way back then the main cause is not so much the idler but the length of the steel track guide on the track itself. I gave them extensive photos, measurements and video of the cause of failure. What I did learn from all this is 1) don't buy another CAT for other than perfect clean level dirt work and 2) I developed a tool that allows me to put a derailed track on in 15 minutes. Interesting to hear about triple idlers... That's always been the problem with CAT, they are so proud that they will listen to nobody. I have a friend who just sold a new Case with the high pressure setup with a Fecon. It's only a week old but it seems to be working great so far. Looking forward to interacting more with you guys..

I run a Tushhog mulcher and Diamond rotary mower (Davco type). I ran the CASE TR320 on the rotary with the regular highflow. I never demoed it with the mulcher. Now that CASE has released the high pressure system for the Alpha series, I wont buy the regular high flow machine I demoed. CASE also released the ability to alter the settings of the machine similiar to the CAT AMICS system. The biggest issue with the TR320 is the cleaning of the radiator. You loosen two bolts and pulls back, but it would not be fun to do with the machine hot. It needs a fan reverser. I think the hp system would run these high demand type attachments better and run them cooler. The new hp system uses a piston pump instead of the gear pump used in the regular hf system.

 

[LanceNE]

Welcome Tsanch to the forum. I think you will find a lot of valuable info and interaction with folks actually using the equipment. I'd almost laugh if it didn't hurt, but the same issues you've had with Cat, I've had. Even hearing complaints from their sales people on how the Corp won't listen to the customers. The skid steer competition is way too stiff and if that too proud attitude doesn't change, Cat's skid steer line is going to be sitting next to their tractor line. Even when they had their mechanics out, their own mechanics said the double and triple idler wouldn't be the fix.
Been hearing a lot of good things about Case's new track skidder.

 

[yanmarman]

Catpiller is junk

They catpiller think they are so great? cat should of stuck to building engines only,and hey are nothing to brage about. give YANMAR a try.everyone else does.Its a shame that anything built in USA IS A OVER PRICED piece of junk. All cat cares about is making more money.we had peterbuilt trucks with cat engines that lasted only 500,000 miles.now only cummins is what we use. catpiller what happened? I;ve seen cummins go a million miles! Used to buy chevy cars but this time bought a honda civic great car ! plus went to dodge trucks because they have cummins engines what a shame

 

[Tsanch]

Thanks for the welcoming. I guess I am going to have to keep a close eye on CASE now. I had a 440C which failed miserably. From broken axles (3) to headliners falling off and all kinds of crazy stuff. I try to keep in mind that EVERY manufacturer makes a few bad machines. I'm just more cautious now with my choices. How about Bobcat with steel tracks? I have had very good luck with T300. Of course we all know how terrible the cooling system is to clean and it's kind of a hydraulic weakling. But I think I read the cooling system is much easier to access now?

 

[LanceNE]

Agreed, I think they all have their pros and cons. Have to be cautious on how bad the cons are and if they would cause substantial financial distress. I think it is just as important also as what we've seen with the problems with Cat, is dealing with companies that realize the shortcomings and try to fix them. I do not have extensive experience with Bobcat. The one we demo'd definitely did not have the track issues Cat had, but if I was full time mulching, or a high percentage of time, I would want access to the radiator without having to find a pair of welding gloves. I think a reversing fan on any machine that is mulching would be a good investment.