Clue me in...

[ForestDan]

High Guys,

I need a skid steer or CTL for my biz, and want to know if anyone has any experience running tracks over tires conversions. I know 95% of this machine's work will be loading whatever into trucks and trailers, pulling my chipper (5K lbs) into the forest and hauling slash and logs (2-3K lbs) out, but a wheeled machine would allow for snow removal during the winter.

I strongly suspect running a wheeled machine with a track kit would be a big compromise in performance, but how well will it work in steep mountains with dry and loose soil?

Lastly, I've borrowed my buddies CAT 287B several times, and like the machine, but he bitches about things with this machine. Actually, he bitches about everything, so I don't know what to think of CAT CTLs. I like the looks of the Bobcats and Gehls, have heard of few good things about Mustangs, ASVs, Case, and Takeuchis, but I need advise from folks who have used them. What about true cost of ownership, and all that? Plus, as I'm in So Cal, how concerned do I need to be regarding TIER II or III engines?

I'd really appreciate some help.

Thanks,

-Dan

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Dan

In your situation, I would look at a larger Cat wheeled machine, and a set of Loegerring tracks for it. They are about the best, and if you need tires back, you can take them off and put rubber back on. That said, you won't want to very often once you use them.

I have a 287, and it is a great performer, but maintenance on the MTL is high.
Cat also has new CTL design out, and I want to look at them as well.

I see you are in SoCal.
Johnson in Riverside is having a demo with free lunch this Friday on the new CTL models.

Might be informative

As far as the other brands, I don't really know, but the service from Cat sells them, and the performance is great too.

 

[ForestDan]

A larger Cat machine... as in a 272 skid steer, or so? You've hit on an interesting solution, if we're on the same page. Are you referring to the QST system that completely replaces the tires, and not the tracks that go around the tires?

They must be expensive, but if I do the math (haven't yet), the cost of the machine plus the QST track system may be significant, but so is the flexibility.

Has anyone used the Loegering QST tracks before?

Thanks tons for the input.

-Dan

 

[ForestDan]

I just called Loegering, and they corrected me. The QST track system is for other machines.... it's the VTS track system that converts the tires completely over to tracks.

This looks way cool! I may be able to have my cake and eat it, too!

Thanks, JDOFMEMI!

 

[CM1995]

Hey Forestdan, welcome to the Forums.

I have run the metal tracks over convential tires on skid steers for many years, although that was before I went to a CTL. We used to run 853/863 Bobcats with metal over the tire tracks in the winter to gain production. Never had any problems out of them unless the tires were not foamed filled. Nothing more aggravating that busting the track loose to fix a flat.:Banghead

I guess it depends on your application. The CTL will float better over soft soils than a track over tire combination. If you operate in a more abrasive environment then I would say the track over tire combination would be somewhat less expensive. We used to weld #4 rebar on our metal OTT tracks when the grousers worn out.

As far as brands go, I used to be a Bobcat guy. However their quality is just not there anymore. An '80's model 843 was damn near bullet proof. I have had mutiple problems out of my '04 T250. If I were to buy a new CTL, I would be looking at a Tak or possibly the new style Cat. The Mustang and Gehl CTL is a repainted Tak, so it would come down to service and parts availability for those 2 brands.

If I were looking at a skid I would also look at Cat. Don't know much about the Case CTL's or skids but they do have a good reputation.

 

[ForestDan]

It all sounds good. Thanks for the heads up on Bobcat.

Thanks, CM1995,

Have you ever seen anything like the Loegring VTS?

I'm pretty sure the best way to drag 5K lb chippers up loose forest slopes and material out is a tracked machine. The rub with that is I can't remove snow in one during the winter. So, the tracks over tires question is raised. I think I may have found a solution. Please clue me in if you or anyone thinks otherwise. Here we go:
Buy a wheeled machine: 272, or thereabouts.
Install McLaren tracks, and experiment. If it works well, coo! If not, then...
Sell McLaren tracks and install Loering VTS and experiment. If it works in loose & steep slopes, great! If not, **** pants, sell everything, go lay on a warm beach somewhere.

-Dan

 

[Bob Horrell]

Dan, what part of So. Cal are you from? I also am in So. Cal. I have had a set of VTS tracks for my Bobcat S250 for several years now. I was one of the first to get them. No problems so far. I originally was going to switch back and forth between the VTS and tires, but I like the performance with the VTS so much I just leave them on. I have a skiploader I can use when tires become necessary.
Let me know if I can answer any specific questions.

 

[ForestDan]

Opps... let's try that again.

 

[ForestDan]

Thanks, Bob. I see you're in Acton. Quite dry desert terrain around you. I guess you run up and down a lot of loose soil. THAT'S my main concern!

I live and work in the San Bernardino mountains. I own a busy tree service, and not having a machine such as I'm looking for is costing me productivity. So, I need to pull my Vermeer BC1000XL (5K lbs) into the mountains, "blow" chips all around, drag material to the chipper with the machine, as well as logs out. I'll be building a limited number of skid trails/roads, and will have to close them when I'm through by building water bars. Typically, I need to get the chipper up old skid trails, slopes, and past rocks, stumps, trees, etc. Getting the chipper into remote areas saves my a rediculous amount of effort: i.e., $$ on labor.

I have used a Cat 287B to perform this task, with mostly good results. The machine has plenty of poop to pull that weight, but sometimes the soil gives way too much, and I end up winching both machines together.

How is the VTS at pulling loads up hills? Is this a robust system? I have not seen one, nor have I received any real comfortable news about what to expect with my application.

So, there you have it. Bottom line:
Does the tracks over tires system work well enough for me?
Does the VTS system stand up to lateral loading such as would be found pulling heavy loads on off camber trails?
Is it possible for me to find a machine that will perform needed tasks as described above in the forest, turn around and move snow in the winter?

These are fundamental questions I will be uncomfortable not knowing the answers to when I go to purchase.

Thanks for all the help you guys have supplied.

-Dan

 

[Bob Horrell]

I use the VTS mostly for hillside work. I have found it to work much better in soft soils than in hard packed soils as far as hillsides are concerned. The heavy lug pattern bites real well in the softer soils and just slides around on the hardpack if the hill is too steep (where you would need steel grousers to gain traction). I have worked a lot of slopes between 4 to 1 and 2 to 1. If the soil is not packed, it does real well. I have had lancsape jobs where I have had to carry rocks in the 5,000 lb. range up steep slopes with no problems. That is a lot different than dragging something weighing 5,000 lbs. up the same hill. Carrying the rock adds to the traction in loose soil, while dragging the weight detracts from the traction available.
I have done a number of jobs where I have had to sidehill with no problems and no significant wear on the undercarriage. Although I will say that side sloping with any tracked machine is not the best thing you can do with it. It is harder on the undercarriage than operating straight up and down.
During our bad winter of 05 I had a hillside job where I had to do a fair amount of sidehill work pushing about 2 yards of wet dirt per pass. The slope was about 3 to 1 and I had to start out going straight down and then turning about 45 degrees at the halfway point until the bottom. I did this all day long without any problems. I was using a heavy duty 80 inch construction bucket which holds 1 and1/4 yards plus I was pushing about another 3/4 yard in front of it.
I have a 84 inch roadrunner attachment which holds about 2 yards when full. I have pushed it all day on different slopes. I cannot push it full up a 2to1 slope, but I am supprised that it does fairly well if only half full. So much depends upon the traction. With soft wet tacky soil, it is amazing how well it does.
I demoed a CAT 287 once and found it to be limited in traction up hills. It did worse than the VTS on soft soil, but better on the harder soils. The many small biting edges didn't allow enough purchase for good traction on softer soils but offered many points of traction on the hard packed ones. The CATS do pretty well for plowing snow for this same reason. They bite pretty good on icy snow. I watched one work at Mountain High ski resort last winter and was impressed at how well it did.
Before getting the VTS system, I used Grouser over the tire tracks. They worked well compared to just tires. The VTS takes it to another whole level as far as traction and stability are concerned. I think the track system is a durable one. How well the skidsteer will hold up depends upon the operator. You have to operate it differently than you would a skid steer with tires. The only drive is off the rear chains, which loads them up a lot more than with tires. I work mine, sometimes hard, but I don't abuse it. I only counter rotate if I am on hard slippery surfaces where I feel no resistance. Use it like you would use a dozer, not a skidsteer.
Rocks will chunk out or cut the tracks if you are not careful, but this is on any rubber tracked machine. You just have to be carefull when in rocks or avoid them if possible. I have some separation cracks in my tracks, but so far nothing too serious. The overall wear is excellent, but then I am almost always in soft dirt.
I once had a job where I had to move a bunch of telephone poles on a hillside. I would grab them in the center with my 4in1 bucket and go. The machine was very stable with them despite the approx. 30 foot length. At 1600 lbs. per side, the VTS system puts a lot of weight down low which really helps with traction and stability.
I hope this info. helps some. I think you would be happy with them. There are a lot of CAT dealers that are selling the CAT skidsteers with the VTS system. If I were you, I would see about getting a demo to try in your application. I have found CAT dealers to be pretty good about offering demos if they thought you were serious about a possible purchase.
Good luck.

 

[ForestDan]

Sounds good, Bob. I think a 272 with a VTS is the thing for me. You said you saw guys moving snow with a 287. It must have been on flat ground, right? I keep hearing they turn into tobagons on slopes. Any opinion on that?

Boy, if the VTS outperforms a 287 in soft soil, I'm elated! Yeah... pulling is a challenge, but welcome to my world. Actually, most of this machine's use will be lifting anf hauling out logs and slash, but there most definately will be some chipper-dragging every now and then.

Thanks for you input, Bob. I appreciate it.

-Dan

 

[Bob Horrell]

It was snowing at the time. The 287 was cleaning the parking lot. At one point it started cleaning a walkway up a hill (about 4 or 5 to 1 slope). The ground under the new snow was frozen. He was cleaning the new snow off the frozen walkway. It amazed me how much traction he had.