D9G or D9H - What do you recommend?

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Passionhawk1. Others may disagree but, to me, ripping rock with a dozer is as much about technique and finesse as it is about brute horse power. I used to bust a lot of rock out at little more than idle and have worked in the same road cuts and out produced the rip tear bust brigade.

The idea is to get that tine in there and just give the tractor enough throttle to maintain traction, lift and bust it out steady steady and ease back and get another bite. Once a track slips more throttle only makes it slip faster.

Reading the grain of the rock is important and I shudder at some of those Youtube clips of dickheads with arse end of D11's and such jacked up smoking ripper boots to no discernable effect.

Cheers.

 

[Passionhawk1]

As for the excavator questions, first, the 345B: does not burn 15 gal per hr, unless you are at near 100 percent duty cycle, which will not happen doing what you describe. I expect in your use, I would expect about 10 gal.

Hello Jerry:

Seeing as you seem to know all about excavators, please fill me in:

What do they mean by a "1-piece boom?" They ALL look like 1-piece booms to me with an articulating stick.

Second question. I often see the term, "Carbody." To what is that in reference?

If an excavator has aux hydraulics, that must mean that installing a thumb for grabbing is possible. Is that correct? No aux hydraulics - no thumb?

If a machine doesn't have aux hydraulics, can you still install a quick-disconnect (QD) head?

Where can you buy QD heads?

Will QD heads install on all excavators?

Are QDs made specific to each excavator or does one size fit all?

Does one need to buy specific buckets to work with a QD head or will they work with any bucket?

Then I read about some units being equipped to do "fixed pattern". What is that?

Like a dozer, I'm sure the chain, idlers, rails, rollers and sprockets are important to the undercarriage. But, specific to excavators, what is the "gotcha" that you need to look for on inspecting?

How can you tell if the turntable or the turntable motor is bad?

Don't excavators have a lot of electronics and electronic ignition? I would think that combined with vibration, electronic anything would not be good.

What about the control handles? I had one of those go out with a 4-1 bucket control and it was an expensive replacement. Seeing as you are constantly moving the control levers, is that an issue with them failing? If that is an issue, how would you ever know if you were just doing a demo on a unit?

Why do I see so many examples of excavators that had engine fires? What's with that? Is that because the engine is back behind you so operators don't see problems such as smoke and oil until it's too late?

When you buy an excavator, is there any such thing as "hi-flow hydraulics" or is that only germane to a skid-steer and all the different skid-steer attachments?

I've seen video of excavators with pneumatic (or perhaps hydraulic) hammers for breaking rock. Is that necessary or will a ripper tooth do the same thing? In the ground I'm working, it's either shale, schist, metasediments, peltic rock or granodiorite. There's no hard batholithic granite like you'd find in a solid, granitic pluton. It's all folded and fractured and mixed with brown ocean sand. The quartz and quartzites is the really hard stuff. It never gets much wider than 10 feet (3 meters).

Sorry for all the questions but that's how this forum has taught me so much.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG FINDERS

 

[nicky 68a]

Jim,as Scrub says,the tractor just needs to tickle the rock out in most cases. The old D9's will be shrouded in black smoke all day due to the operator tickling the rock out.
The Kelly does look far back and can jack things up somewhat,but this can be handy if big lumps get jammed up.It doesn't seem to clog up.
I can't really put it into words or logic,but a Kelly is a great ripper that can get the job done.
The D8R is mine.These days,all rippers are of the 4 piston variety as far as I'm aware.
Mark Twain and the liar.................funny.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Yair . . .

Passionhawk1. Others may disagree but, to me, ripping rock with a dozer is as much about technique and finesse as it is about brute horse power. I used to bust a lot of rock out at little more than idle and have worked in the same road cuts and out produced the rip tear bust brigade.

The idea is to get that tine in there and just give the tractor enough throttle to maintain traction, lift and bust it out steady steady and ease back and get another bite. Once a track slips more throttle only makes it slip faster.

Reading the grain of the rock is important and I shudder at some of those Youtube clips of dickheads with arse end of D11's and such jacked up smoking ripper boots to no discernable effect.

Cheers.

So Scrub Puller, now I understand the decelerator. I've never heard that before about the gentle idle approach to pulling rocks. Rocks have tremendous compressive force. They're hard to press from the outside in and get them to break. However, rocks are very weak in tension - easier pulling them apart. If you can get aligned with the grain (not cross grain), I can see where it would take very little effort to "lift" them out - versus trying to plow through them. Plowing through them with a tine - pressing them inward from the outside is working against the strongest part of a rock. I can see where all you need to do is get a little bit of a bite to lift and roll. You gentlemen have taught me so much.

Yes, I've seen videos where the tines are smoking and scraping over the top of rocks. I thought, "Man that's hard on the equipment." That's something I learned about steam locomotives. When those steel tires slip on the rail, it tears the heck out of roller bearings. Steel slipping on steel is bad and that's what you're doing anytime you slip a chain without forward movement. As I said yesterday, many people don't have the "feel" for mechanical equipment. You can feel what a machine is doing from your butt all the way through your arms and hands. Same with sound and vibration. It's an art to do it right, that's for sure.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG FINDERS

 

[Passionhawk1]

Jim,as Scrub says,the tractor just needs to tickle the rock out in most cases. The old D9's will be shrouded in black smoke all day due to the operator tickling the rock out.
The Kelly does look far back and can jack things up somewhat,but this can be handy if big lumps get jammed up.It doesn't seem to clog up.
I can't really put it into words or logic,but a Kelly is a great ripper that can get the job done.
The D8R is mine.These days,all rippers are of the 4 piston variety as far as I'm aware.
Mark Twain and the liar.................funny.

Nicky, when I started out, I really wanted a D9H..........until I learned how thirsty they were to operate. With you describing easing out the rocks at just a bit more than an idle, maybe the D9 wouldn't use so much fuel - you think?

Your D8R. It has differential steering, correct? How do you like that versus the hand clutches?

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG FINDERS

 

[Birken Vogt]

I posted this elsewhere that my Dad tells a story when they were working in the woods for a logging company years ago.

He went to pick up his Dad, to go home for the night, my Grandpa who operated a direct drive D9 into the 1970s building roads in the woods. He had been ripping tough rock and my Dad says he was pulling for all the traction he could get, just above idle.

It was after dark and when Grandpa pulled the ripper tooth out of the rock it was glowing dull red.

That is what you get from focusing all the engine power onto a small piece of metal.

 

[Passionhawk1]

I posted this elsewhere that my Dad tells a story when they were working in the woods for a logging company years ago.

He went to pick up his Dad, to go home for the night, my Grandpa who operated a direct drive D9 into the 1970s building roads in the woods. He had been ripping tough rock and my Dad says he was pulling for all the traction he could get, just above idle.

It was after dark and when Grandpa pulled the ripper tooth out of the rock it was glowing dull red.

That is what you get from focusing all the engine power onto a small piece of metal.

Hello Birken:

Obviously, this slow, steady procedure to pull rocks as described by Scrub has been used a great deal. It is not hard to imagine how all that tractive effort concentrated into a tiny spot of steel as you explained, would cause that much heat and friction. That would also explain why a single Kelly Ripper tine would be so effective.

Amazing that Caterpillar has not described this technique on their website instructions devoted to ripping.

Thanks for telling us that great story.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders

 

[John Shipp]

Hello again Jim,

Thought I'd answer some of your post above.





What do they mean by a "1-piece boom?" They ALL look like 1-piece booms to me with an articulating stick.

1 piece boom is the standard mono boom shaped like a banana. Then there are various other booms, a 2 piece boom will have another joint about half way along the boom (just after the main lift rams attachment to the boom), another set of rams. Then all the demolition booms, logging style etc. One piece boom is strong and low maintenance, perfect for most applications.

Second question. I often see the term, "Carbody." To what is that in reference?

Carbody in excavator speak refers to the "chassis" or the frame that holds the track rollers apart, roughly X shaped box section frame that the rest of the excavator sits above.

If an excavator has aux hydraulics, that must mean that installing a thumb for grabbing is possible. Is that correct? No aux hydraulics - no thumb?

Aux hydraulics to me refer to the service lines along the boom / dipper to run breakers, grabs, rotators etc. On a standard machine it will often have a one way flow, plus a return, all run from foot pedal. This is breaker aux. Can be reconfigured in most cases to be 2 way, to allow it to run a grab etc.

A 2nd aux line is fitted for say rotator.

I've never installed a thumb, but from using them and from what I've read, the clever ones allow for the bucket to overcome the ram pressure on the thumb when they contact, so you can adjust the bucket position further crowded while still holding something with thumb. This would require some extra hydraulic fittings not normally fitted to the standard aux line.

Most machines of modern era (such as 345B) have provision for bolting on or adapting aux hydraulics. It comes down to cost again, so buying a used machine with these features already on it may cost less than having to build up a machine that doesn't have any of them. A hydraulics man can usually see at a glance of the valve bank and lines on dipper what kind of job is involved to fit on the extras.

Quick hitch or quick disconnect lines will be slightly different to standard aux line as they are specific to the hitches design, normally much smaller hoses, and use a valve and toggle switch in cab wired up to a buzzer etc so you know you've tripped it.

If a machine doesn't have aux hydraulics, can you still install a quick-disconnect (QD) head?

Yes.

Where can you buy QD heads?

Pass

Will QD heads install on all excavators?

Yes, although on ancient ones or tiny minis it may be a manual disconnect rather than hydraulic.

Are QDs made specific to each excavator or does one size fit all?

Specific. Basically has to match the bucket bracket (pin size and spacing) of each class and brand machine.

Does one need to buy specific buckets to work with a QD head or will they work with any bucket?

Pin grabber QD come in two types. One fits a range of pin spacing, the other fits only a set pin spacing (pitch). Then there are the QD that are part of back of special buckets, have to buy the set.

Then I read about some units being equipped to do "fixed pattern". What is that?

Like a dozer, I'm sure the chain, idlers, rails, rollers and sprockets are important to the undercarriage. But, specific to excavators, what is the "gotcha" that you need to look for on inspecting?

How can you tell if the turntable or the turntable motor is bad?

Don't excavators have a lot of electronics and electronic ignition? I would think that combined with vibration, electronic anything would not be good.

What about the control handles? I had one of those go out with a 4-1 bucket control and it was an expensive replacement. Seeing as you are constantly moving the control levers, is that an issue with them failing? If that is an issue, how would you ever know if you were just doing a demo on a unit?

Why do I see so many examples of excavators that had engine fires? What's with that? Is that because the engine is back behind you so operators don't see problems such as smoke and oil until it's too late?

When you buy an excavator, is there any such thing as "hi-flow hydraulics" or is that only germane to a skid-steer and all the different skid-steer attachments?

I've seen video of excavators with pneumatic (or perhaps hydraulic) hammers for breaking rock. Is that necessary or will a ripper tooth do the same thing? In the ground I'm working, it's either shale, schist, metasediments, peltic rock or granodiorite. There's no hard batholithic granite like you'd find in a solid, granitic pluton. It's all folded and fractured and mixed with brown ocean sand. The quartz and quartzites is the really hard stuff. It never gets much wider than 10 feet (3 meters).

 

[Passionhawk1]

Hello again Jim,

Thought I'd answer some of your post above.





What do they mean by a "1-piece boom?" They ALL look like 1-piece booms to me with an articulating stick.

1 piece boom is the standard mono boom shaped like a banana. Then there are various other booms, a 2 piece boom will have another joint about half way along the boom (just after the main lift rams attachment to the boom), another set of rams. Then all the demolition booms, logging style etc. One piece boom is strong and low maintenance, perfect for most applications.

Second question. I often see the term, "Carbody." To what is that in reference?

Carbody in excavator speak refers to the "chassis" or the frame that holds the track rollers apart, roughly X shaped box section frame that the rest of the excavator sits above.

If an excavator has aux hydraulics, that must mean that installing a thumb for grabbing is possible. Is that correct? No aux hydraulics - no thumb?

Aux hydraulics to me refer to the service lines along the boom / dipper to run breakers, grabs, rotators etc. On a standard machine it will often have a one way flow, plus a return, all run from foot pedal. This is breaker aux. Can be reconfigured in most cases to be 2 way, to allow it to run a grab etc.

A 2nd aux line is fitted for say rotator.

I've never installed a thumb, but from using them and from what I've read, the clever ones allow for the bucket to overcome the ram pressure on the thumb when they contact, so you can adjust the bucket position further crowded while still holding something with thumb. This would require some extra hydraulic fittings not normally fitted to the standard aux line.

Most machines of modern era (such as 345B) have provision for bolting on or adapting aux hydraulics. It comes down to cost again, so buying a used machine with these features already on it may cost less than having to build up a machine that doesn't have any of them. A hydraulics man can usually see at a glance of the valve bank and lines on dipper what kind of job is involved to fit on the extras.

Quick hitch or quick disconnect lines will be slightly different to standard aux line as they are specific to the hitches design, normally much smaller hoses, and use a valve and toggle switch in cab wired up to a buzzer etc so you know you've tripped it.

If a machine doesn't have aux hydraulics, can you still install a quick-disconnect (QD) head?

Yes.

Where can you buy QD heads?

Pass

Will QD heads install on all excavators?

Yes, although on ancient ones or tiny minis it may be a manual disconnect rather than hydraulic.

Are QDs made specific to each excavator or does one size fit all?

Specific. Basically has to match the bucket bracket (pin size and spacing) of each class and brand machine.

Does one need to buy specific buckets to work with a QD head or will they work with any bucket?

Pin grabber QD come in two types. One fits a range of pin spacing, the other fits only a set pin spacing (pitch). Then there are the QD that are part of back of special buckets, have to buy the set.

Dear John:

The questions you did answer help me better understand. Accordingly, if an excavator doesn't have a QD, you have to find one that is made for that excavator - such as the 345B L. The 345 I'm looking at has holes on the underside of the stick for a thumb. I also see two (2) lines coming down that terminate with fittings and nothing connected. That must be the AUX Hydraulics.

I can see where a thumb would be good for picking up trees, limbs, trash etc. I have none of that so I don't think I need worry about a thumb. The QD? I need one of those to go back and forth between the big bucket, the smaller "picker" bucket and a ripper.

John, thank you for improving my education and getting me more up to speed on excavators.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders

 

[Delmer]

what is the "gotcha" that you need to look for on inspecting?

How can you tell if the turntable or the turntable motor is bad?

Don't excavators have a lot of electronics and electronic ignition? I would think that combined with vibration, electronic anything would not be good.

What about the control handles?

Why do I see so many examples of excavators that had engine fires? What's with that? Is that because the engine is back behind you so operators don't see problems such as smoke and oil until it's too late?



DLOG FINDERS

The gotcha on an excavator is the hydraulic system. The hydraulics do everything, if they've been contaminated by hardened steel bits, they'll never recover, short of complete rebuilding everything. An SOS oil sample is like ten bucks, you do the math.

The turntable bearing can be checked by setting the bucket flat just above the ground, then have somebody tilt the bucket down to lift the tracks while you observe the play between the top and bottom of the bearing.

I don't know what would be a problem with the control handles? the valves will be expensive, but they're not a big factor because of how reliable/durable they are (unless those hard steel bits start floating around).

There's a lot packed into a small space is all I can say for fires in excavators, once they start they won't be put out easy, and they won't be rebuilt easy either. That or the friction between the insurance papers and the loan papers?

 

[Passionhawk1]

Decelerator and the clutch

From my years of using broadcast electronics and complex, inter-connected systems, I learned the value of not just knowing "how" to use the equipment, but more important, how each component worked in the system and what it added to the mix. The best electronics troubleshooter at NBC taught me the value of knowing the entire system and how it works. Without that knowledge, it is very difficult to figuratively "find the fire" and correct problems when they occur. So in this spirit, I ask what some will think are dumb questions but it's not dumb for me to learn. I will express certain lay assumptions and please, feel free to correct any errors in my thinking.

It is my belief that if a person knows what is happening with specificity when they turn on the key to the ignition, when they depress a clutch pedal or apply a brake, then, they should be able to be a better operator the vehicle because then, they can understand the true consequence of their actions.

Let's state up front that I am not talking about a brand new Cat. I am talking about older machines that use clutch handles to remove the friction pressure upon the clutch plates of individual track drives.

A decelerator retards engine RPMs momentarily so that one can stop/pause/change what the machine is doing without slamming it with a new (and opposing) purpose and stressing the components. The decelerator pedal is a fast and handy way to temporarily slow down the energy output of the engine. A decelerator could also be emulated in a crude fashion by first retarding and then increasing the throttle.

During this interval of engine deceleration, what happens to the relationship between the clutch on the flywheel and the engine? Is it like taking your foot off the accelerator of a car, bringing it to a stop at a stop light but still keeping the automatic transmission in DRIVE while the vehicle is stopped? Over time, is this process of deceleration hard on the clutch and the transmission? If an engine is running, it is still delivering power through the crank shaft to the clutch plate. In an automatic transmission, resisting that kinetic energy of the engine's power output places hydrostatic pressure on the transmission impeller, the seals which hold back the fluid and upon the brake shoes which are holding back the engine's driving inertia from reaching the drive shaft.

Why am I asking such an elemental question? It is because Scrub and others have explained that the most important component of ripping hard material is the correct application of the decelerator. In Cat-speak, that means controlling the amount of power that is reaching the clutch, pressure plate and final drives connected to the sprockets that engage and pull the chain. Whew. That was a mouthful.

All of this got me to thinking. If I am "riding" the decelerator to maintain traction and prevent track slippage, what am I really doing every time I momentarily remove the engine's inertia to the flywheel? Am I (after a fashion) riding the clutch? What is that gentle on again - off again action on the decelerator actually doing to the engine, the flywheel, the clutch plate, and the clutch? Am I prematurely wearing out a particular component in order to correctly and most efficiently deliver varying degrees of power to the grouser cleats in a manner that maintains tractive effort to the ground? I want to know what I'm really doing to the machine internally - besides obviously riding the decelerator pedal with my right foot.

See, not such a dumb question after all.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders

 

[AusDave]

Hi Jim.
I can see this thread going for years answering your questions and raising more questions in the process. Is it possible to hire in a decent sized dozer and operator and after that a 330 sized excavator & operator and see how they perform on your site? The proviso would be that experienced and friendly operators be provided to give you some skills & capability training in the process.

That could save a lot of time and money in the long run. If you chose your machine of choice by HEF and found it didn't perform to your expectations onsite, it could be an expensive process to sell and replace with the right machine. It will also give you a clearer understanding of the size of machine you can get away with. Bear in mind a big machine can be big dollars when it comes to repair & maintenance. The smallest machine that will do the job may be a consideration especially as you're more likely to end up with a more common machine making parts & repairs less costly.

I operate dozers, excavators and more and either may be what you require. But as Scrub's post always indicate, it's the skill of the operator that will win the gold and not wreck the machine.

AusDave

 

[Passionhawk1]

There's a lot packed into a small space is all I can say for fires in excavators, once they start they won't be put out easy, and they won't be rebuilt easy either. That or the friction between the insurance papers and the loan papers?

Haaaaah! What a great line, Delmer! The truth always comes out. It ain't the hardware where the problem lies, it's the friction in between the insurance and loan papers! That's funny.

So Delmer, I've spent a lot of my years around unlimited Air Racing. P-51s, P-38s, P-40s, Bearcats, Corsairs, Russian Yaks, English Seafurys, Airacobras and the like. After every race, first thing that happens back in the pits is the crew chief pulls the oil and see if the engine is "making metal" from all the hard running. Find metal shavings and it's bye-bye $400,000 Rolls Royce or Pratt and Whitney engine! What you're describing to me is the same principle. Excavators are all about hydraulics - cylinders, hoses, fittings, rams, sleeves and pumps. If an excavator starts to make metal in the hydraulics, then the whole shebang is toast, right? Wow. So if a guy is going to test and inspect an excavator, he wants to:

Run it up for 7-8 minutes and exercise the entire hydraulic system.

Then, pull some hot hydraulic oil and see if it's making metal. Sounds like I need an experienced excavator mechanic along because he'll know where to pull the sample from the sump. I wouldn't know the sump drain if it were sitting in my lap. You can be danged sure I'm going to learn though!!!!!!!!!!!!

What can an operator do to avoid or prevent a hydraulic system from making metal - besides very timely hydraulic fluid changes, the very best fluids and good filters and keeping the RPMS under control?

Great explanation on the turntable. I know precisely what you mean and where to look. Ohhhh thank you, Delmer!

I had the control "handle" fail on a machine I was using. The plastic separated and the whole thing fell apart in my right hand. Cost a bloody fortune to buy a new articulating handle and the labor to wire it back in. That's why I asked about the control handles.

Delmer, you're a champion! Thanks for answering the questions! Thanks to you, I wouldn't think of doing a demo without a paid mechanic on board to CMA. That's short for "cover my keister."

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Passionhawk1. A decelerator is the exact opposite of an accelerator/throttle and is just another linkage to the injection pump.

Normal procedure on a dozer is to set the throttle at the maximum RPM you need (normally pulled wide open with a couple of extra bumps to make sure) and the decelerator is then used to adjust speed or power within that range . . . can't do any harm at all.

As far as damage that can be done to older clutch steer tractors . . . .

I never tolerated fancy high speed direction changes.

Obviously a power shift should never be left at idle or part throttle with stalled out tracks.

"Sling shotting" or reengaging a steering clutch when the other track is spinning on loose rock or whatever should be avoided at all costs . . . just decel, shift to neutral and allow clutch to reengage.

And of course on any machine with an over centre clutch be it torque converter or direct drive the transmission must be shifted to neutral and the clutch reengaged before allowing to stand at idle.

Cheers

 

[Passionhawk1]

Hi Jim.
I can see this thread going for years answering your questions and raising more questions in the process. Is it possible to hire in a decent sized dozer and operator and after that a 330 sized excavator & operator and see how they perform on your site? The proviso would be that experienced and friendly operators be provided to give you some skills & capability training in the process.

That could save a lot of time and money in the long run. If you chose your machine of choice by HEF and found it didn't perform to your expectations onsite, it could be an expensive process to sell and replace with the right machine. It will also give you a clearer understanding of the size of machine you can get away with. Bear in mind a big machine can be big dollars when it comes to repair & maintenance. The smallest machine that will do the job may be a consideration especially as you're more likely to end up with a more common machine making parts & repairs less costly.

I operate dozers, excavators and more and either may be what you require. But as Scrub's post always indicate, it's the skill of the operator that will win the gold and not wreck the machine.

AusDave

Hello AusDave:

Know what the problem is? I know just enough to be dangerous! I've operated two Cat dozers (2 and a 7) and one TD24. Did it in my youth. Now, I'm "poor-boying" this new adventure. Other than being a film producer, a directer and a writer who has done several marketing films for major gold mining companies, I'm not an experienced miner. Oh, I've panned and sluiced my share of gravels but I know enough about both geology and mining to be terribly dangerous. So that brought me to this point of buying equipment.

I first thought I'd need a heavy machine like a D9 to rip out the rocks. The title of this thread is, "D9G or D9H - What do you recommend?" Then, I found out all the downsides of the older D9G and H machines I was considering. That opened the door to using an excavator to pick out the quartz vein formations and doze away the overburden. That led me to consider a smaller D8 and with fingers crossed, I think I've got the right one in the sights. A Cat mechanic is going over the machine and telling me what is needed to make it healthy.

I know nothing about excavators. That being said, I've done a lot of work with a backhoe and owned a big front-end loader so I have the feel for dig-curl-crowd. Equipment comes naturally to me - always has. Though I've spent hundreds of hours digging, dozing, loading and spreading rock, gravel and DG, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on anything.

Which brings us back to the mine. My sweet wife and I are a typical mom and pop. We found this property, did our due diligence, confirmed the mineralization for ourselves, hired geologists to get their expert counsel and took the educated plunge. Now, we're ready to take this to the next level. We already have a very sound mine and processing plan - keeping the large (but purposefully portable) milling equipment almost on top of the point of extraction. That eliminates trucks, rubber, fuel, acquisition cost, insurance and labor.

Yes, you are 100% right. In a perfect world with lots of money and enormous common sense, I'd hire in equipment, labor and let the "Pros From Dover" do everything. I'd just sit back and push the wheelbarrows full of money all the way to the bank. U-hh, Dave? In 53 years of running businesses, that's not the way my life has ever worked. So what's a mother to do? Well, first off, I bought the mine. It's free and clear. No payments. Next, I started gathering equipment I would need for processing the ore. I learned how to operate the rock crusher, hammer mill and shaker table. It's free and clear. No payments. Then, I taught my wife how to operate. What a wonderful wife. I am sooooo darned lucky! Besides, if there's one place the ladies like to be, it's where the gold comes out! HAH!!!!!!! Got a small dump truck, tracked loader, power plant, tool shed, water and fuel tanks, haulers and similar stuff. It's all free and clear. No payments. Now, I'm ready to buy a dozer and an excavator. When I'm done? You guessed it. It will all be free and clear, too. No payments. Does that mean I'm wealthy? Oh hell no. I've worked my backside off for every nickel I've ever made. God has been exceedingly good to me, Dave. I am more blessed than I deserve - even in spite of myself.

I can walk away from the mine and never look back. I can sell the mining equipment for whatever it brings and move on. None of those sleepless nights I had when I was young wondering, "How am I going to get out of this financial hole I've dug for myself?"

So back to your good advice, Dave. I found this forum. What a great forum this has been. I thought I knew all about earth moving equipment but as it turns out, I didn't know jack. But I've read, I've listened, I've consulted individuals and I've learned the spots where the cows crap in the buckwheat! Do I know as much as these fine folks? No way Jose but everybody's got to start somewhere. At age 70, my apprentice days are in the wake of my boat. If I don't do this stuff now then I might as well go chop wood. As I use to joke with friends, when I got in the motion picture business, I wasn't sure which end of the camera to stand behind. First roll of film I got back from the lab had a big eyeball on the screen all the way through. It was my eyeball! That's how I learned which end of the camera to stand behind and the difference between a lens and a viewfinder! Bad joke.

Dave? I've hired mechanics, geologists and people who know their stuff. You can rest assured I've done the same on the dozer and will be doing the same with the excavator. Now, I have a serious question. Let's see if you know the answer. Have you ever met the most careful and gentle equipment operator on earth? Let me introduce you and tell you who he is. He's the same guy who paid for the equipment! That's the most gentle operator and that would be me. I'll be the one out there tickling the rocks and polishing the dozer blades so they shine - just like Nicky does on his beautiful dozers. I'll be the grease monkey with the gun in my hand and a smile pumpin' the zerks full every two hours to make sure we're keepin' the old girls happy.

In short Dave, are you right? Should I hire in some pros and learn slowly and correctly how to become a good operator? Well of course you're right, Dave. You're spot-on. If I had a money tree growing in the back yard and if I lived in a perfect world, that's the best and most sound advice you could give and I really and truly respect that and thank you for being an honest guy and putting out the truth - just like we all should. But Dave? Just one little problem. You know those guys that mothers always warn their daughters about? Yup, you guessed it. Egotistical, head-strong, know-it-all, more enthusiasm than common sense? That's me too. Maybe my name should have been Trump. Eeeoowwwww . . . . now that was a bad one, aye?

Dave, God Bless You and thanks for the really good advice. Probably the best and most honest advice on this thread.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders

PS: The more I think on your suggestion, Dave, the more I believe it couldn't hurt to bring in a dozer operator with his Cat and also a small excavator for 2-3 weeks each so I could watch, get the basics down and see how the equipment performs. I could stockpile the pay and run it through the plant after the fact. I had another wise man suggest something similar way back when this thread began. Of course, being the egotistical, head-strong, know-it-all guy that I am, I blew off the idea. That was stupid, huh. Well, it is a good idea and one that's going to get serious consideration. Thank you, AusDave!

 

[Passionhawk1]

Yair . . .

Passionhawk1. A decelerator is the exact opposite of an accelerator/throttle and is just another linkage to the injection pump.

Normal procedure on a dozer is to set the throttle at the maximum RPM you need (normally pulled wide open with a couple of extra bumps to make sure) and the decelerator is then used to adjust speed or power within that range . . . can't do any harm at all.

As far as damage that can be done to older clutch steer tractors . . . .

I never tolerated fancy high speed direction changes.

Obviously a power shift should never be left at idle or part throttle with stalled out tracks.

"Sling shotting" or reengaging a steering clutch when the other track is spinning on loose rock or whatever should be avoided at all costs . . . just decel, shift to neutral and allow clutch to reengage.

And of course on any machine with an over centre clutch be it torque converter or direct drive the transmission must be shifted to neutral and the clutch reengaged before allowing to stand at idle.

Cheers

Scrub, that says it all. The decelerator is actually decreasing the fuel supply to the injectors. So when you are "riding" the decelerator, what you're really doing is modulating the amount of fuel being squirted into the cylinders by the fuel injection pump through the injectors - and thereby, controlling the power curve and the response of the engine by varying the quantity of fuel being delivered. Great explanation. I got it. Thanks, Scrub!

I'll start backing off of these questions or like AusDave says, this thread will go on for years.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders

 

[nicky 68a]

Jim Passionhawk1.
This has to be one of the most interesting or unusual threads I've read on here. It has me curious as to what will happen next in your adventure.Nitelite and his '951 in my sights' thread had a similar ring to it.Perhaps you should look it up in the track loader thread.
I look forward to following your tales on top of that Hill once you start hoofing all those coins out of it..
As for different steer being better to operate than clutch steer? .Yes it is,but when you are ripping,your right hand will be on the ripper and your left hand needs to do no more than scratch your arse.No steering when that shank is down.None.Ever.

 

[John Shipp]

They're all good questions Jim, you've analysed a lot of points that need considering. I would've answered a few more earlier but my wife reminded me we that we had a new year celebration to attend!

I think the general consensus here is that you don't want too small of a machine as ripping rock is hard on the medal. But you don't want too large where your costs rise that way. I looked at a 345C yesterday, and considering what you're doing I could see how it's power and weight would be helpful. But it had no quickhitch (QD), and the bucket was a muck shifting bucket which would be too big in rock. I also saw a lot of 30-35 tonners, all had QD quickhitch. Seems the larger machines don't always have them fitted whereas they are common on smaller machines. I think you need the quickhitch, and a rock bucket more on the narrow side than wide, and a ripper tooth. It transforms a excavator when in just 5 seconds you can swap between the attachments lined up beside you, and use the right tool rather than wasting time trying to do it all with a big old bucket. Or having to swap to a different machine, then back again.

Sounds like a Cat in the 30-50 ton class, with QD.

John

 

[Delmer]

So Delmer, I've spent a lot of my years around unlimited Air Racing. P-51s, P-38s, P-40s, Bearcats, Corsairs, Russian Yaks, English Seafurys, Airacobras and the like. After every race, first thing that happens back in the pits is the crew chief pulls the oil and see if the engine is "making metal" from all the hard running. Find metal shavings and it's bye-bye $400,000 Rolls Royce or Pratt and Whitney engine! What you're describing to me is the same principle. Excavators are all about hydraulics - cylinders, hoses, fittings, rams, sleeves and pumps. If an excavator starts to make metal in the hydraulics, then the whole shebang is toast, right? Wow. So if a guy is going to test and inspect an excavator, he wants to:

Run it up for 7-8 minutes and exercise the entire hydraulic system.

Then, pull some hot hydraulic oil and see if it's making metal.

That's the idea. Once a bearing or whatever grinds itself to death, and if that metal gets spread around, it will be stuck in softer parts wearing them away bit by bit, generating more and more little pieces of metal.

An SOS kit is a bottle inside a bottle with a shipping label, you buy it from the Cat dealer (it's cheap) and it includes the testing and postage paid. If you buy a ten pack it comes with flexible hose to use with a suction gun to pull a sample from the tank, or you can use a valve on a line for the sample. Drain oil is not recommended. The test is PPM for a bunch of elements. There's also particle counts, search for that cause I'd get it wrong.

One test isn't as useful as a history of tests on the machine. If you do one, I believe they will include any former results they have for the same engine/machine serial number. Of course, one horrible test is enough to tell you the bad news, but one clean test doesn't show much (unknown hours etc).

 

[Passionhawk1]

That's the idea. Once a bearing or whatever grinds itself to death, and if that metal gets spread around, it will be stuck in softer parts wearing them away bit by bit, generating more and more little pieces of metal.

An SOS kit is a bottle inside a bottle with a shipping label, you buy it from the Cat dealer (it's cheap) and it includes the testing and postage paid. If you buy a ten pack it comes with flexible hose to use with a suction gun to pull a sample from the tank, or you can use a valve on a line for the sample. Drain oil is not recommended. The test is PPM for a bunch of elements. There's also particle counts, search for that cause I'd get it wrong.

One test isn't as useful as a history of tests on the machine. If you do one, I believe they will include any former results they have for the same engine/machine serial number. Of course, one horrible test is enough to tell you the bad news, but one clean test doesn't show much (unknown hours etc).

Delmer, I'm glad you made that clear. I thought your referral to SOS was just a casual, conversational reference. So CAT has this SOS fluid testing service? You're absolutely right. Ten bucks is a cheap test. Then again, if you get a bad report, it's the same as finding out you've got VD. You know you've really been screwed (in more ways than one) but then you say to yourself, "Now what am I going to do?" Perhaps that's a sick comparison.

Is this only for excavators or is it on all Cat equipment? Is this just for hydraulic fluid or do they test engine oil, too?

So it's as simple as taking a sample of the hydraulic fluid from the reservoir? I would think the filter would catch everything before it returns to the tank.

Know what, Delmer? We've got a huge Cat dealership here in Nevada with all the mining. I'm going to go down there tomorrow, strike up a conversation, ask for a 10-pack of this SOS to use on the machines I'm investigating and see what else I can learn. Never hurts to have someone you know, in advance, at the parts and equipment supplier store.

Thanks for the clarification.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG Finders