Downhill

[Marksan]

............so what is the best way to go down a steep hill with a late 1980s 200 series kobelco excavator with cleats/corks/lugs whatever you call them welded to the tracks and a rock bucket?

lve read about bucket first...............but what happens if you start to slide and try to catch it with the bucket,wont you bend the stick and arm to buggery??

lve read about bucket uphill and lowering yourself.

Most seem to prefer the idlers forward.

The slope itself is about 200' and a person can walk up and down with out needing hand holds, but it will wind the unfit. The main problem is it has 3 cross ditch berms that are at 90 degrees to the slope, they have steep backs of about 2/3 feet.

The ground is hard for a couple of inches, im thinking of going down backwards with the bucket teeth grazing the surface, i have a banksman to guide me down...........that way if i slide its the counterweight that contacts the trees at the bottom of the slope.................................

l have been up and down this slope a couple of times, so it can be done, however i would like to know the safest way.........before using up another of the 'nine lives'!

Options please guys, while i warm the machine and walk it to the top of the slope


Cheers

 

[buckfever]

I perfer bucket down hill. If you go slow using the bucket to stop a slide you won't bend anything. beside i wuold rather stop a machine from tipping over then sliding to the bottom. I've slide down a 50' slope once. Had to change my underwear after but that was all.

 

[watglen]

We've all seen dozens of videos where this sort of thing has gone really really badly.

For starters, I would judge the soil and decide if the bucket could stab enough soil to stop me in the event of an out of control slide. Depending on the slope, you may need a couple feet of "dirt". If the slope is rock, the bucket won't do you much good in a slide, and i wouldn't attempt it.

Assuming its dirt the bucket can bite into, i would go down with drive motors downslope, with the arm and bucket outstretched downslope and very close to the ground.

Idlers down can cause the idler tension spring to compress fully, and all the slack will be placed under the rollers. Not the best situation. Drive motors downslope will keep the tracks under proper tension, idlers and drive sprockets properly engaged.

Bucket downslope is so you can keep the center of gravity low, and allow you to drop the teeth to stop a slide. Keep your 'brake' on the downslope. That is where all your weight is placed. Also, keep the arm cylinder fully retracted. That cylinder won't hold the weight if the arm is crowded in at all.

seatbelt on, expect the worst, work for best outcome.

And it never hurts to have the days paper with you, just in case.

Good luck

 

[smitten]

If it all works out well, it will look somethinge like this

YouTube - Extreme Maneuver excavator down hill

and if not, like this

YouTube - Excavator Crash CAT 330D crane Accident Driver Killed Bagger Unfall Pelle Koparka Excavadora Makina

 

[dynahoescott]

:drinkupBucket first,but make sure you are level laterally as you encroach over the top of the hill and make sure your tracks dont bury them selves in the forward direction as you inch your way down, that is the first step. Then walk yourself down with the arm and stick keeping yourself level until the stick is almost all the way in and repeat until you are down the hill. If the hill is that steep you might have to bench yourself step by step as you work your way down

 

[DirtHauler]

here is the video that shows the 8 mins that led up to that accident.

YouTube - accidente en autopista mexico tuxpam excavadora 330.3gp


It is worth watching the whole thing to see just how quickly things can change, it has changed the way i run and think about excavators.

 

[bobcatmechanic]

could use a dozer as an anchor and winch down with a rear mount winch so you always have some sort of control.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

:drinkupBucket first,but make sure you are level laterally as you encroach over the top of the hill and make sure your tracks dont bury them selves in the forward direction as you inch your way down, that is the first step. Then walk yourself down with the arm and stick keeping yourself level until the stick is almost all the way in and repeat until you are down the hill. If the hill is that steep you might have to bench yourself step by step as you work your way down

I have a couple of issues with these directions. They may be fine for a short stretch of steep slope, but can lead to a failure like the video posted above on a bigger hill.

First: As you work your way down, be sure to have the bucket rolled out teeth first. Using the heel of the bucket will act like a ski. I know, I rode down a 40' high 2:1 rip rap slope that way once. Keep the teeth out so they can dig in.

Second: Do not let your stick get anywhere close to all the way in. You loose all power and therefore control a little a past straight up and down. By the time you get to this point, it will be too late. Hyd. will go to relief and the stick will come the rest of the way in. This is part of the fellows problem in above video as well. While pulling the stick in, you still have some power in close, but very little for pushing out. The leverage is all wrong. Start nearly as far out as you can reach, and stop when the stick gets perpindicular to the boom. Get your tracks stable, and CAREFULLY in a controlled manner raise the boom and put the stick all the way out again. Now repeat. If you start to slide when you raise the boom, put it back down and try to dig in the tracks or push yourself back up a little until you get a stable place.

Third: Unless it is a short hill you can go down in one setting, keep your machine on the slope, not raised up in the air to level it. This just gives more room to fall, building speed that is hard to control if anything slips. Full track contact is best.

Fourth: Always keep your drive sprockets on the downhill side. It has been said already, but is very important, and the steeper the hill the more important it is. With the sprockets uphill, they will compress the Idler springs, and the slack will pile up in front of the sprocket until you possibly jump teeth. This can lead to a loss of control, as well as broken parts. It also takes much more power to stretch the track around everything to pull than it does to climb the links from the rear like they are designed to do.

If you can, on a very steep hill, you can cut benches and then drop from one to the next, but some places you can't do that due to utilities, rocks, trees, or other obstructions or rules.

The most important thing to remember is this:

If you are loosing ground, STOP. Secure the machine and get help. Get a cable on it and work yourself out with help. It will prevent a potentially fatal accident, and the life you save will be your own. Do not be ashamed of asking for help if you are in over your head. Watch the whole 8 minute video above and ask yourself how many times a cable from above would have saved that operators life.

Finally, Know your limits, and don't push your luck. When things go wrong, it can be over before you know it.

I have been fortunate to have been able to save myself a couple of times when I was where I shouldn't have been and didn't figure it out till it was too late.

 

[dynahoescott]

Actually Jerry, you just reiterated everything I previously said, I never said a curled bucket, of course you would have your teeth in the ground. And as far as benching goes, I mentioned that also. I have personally descended down many slopes with the procedure I outlined earlier. And as I stated watch to see you dont bury your tracks going down, that is your indication of potential uncontrollable sliding, I should have mentioned feeling your machine as you reposition your boom and stick for unwanted movement but I figured it went without saying. After all, all operations are done carefully in such a situation. And yes I totally agree if you feel you are in a uncontrollable situation, GET OUT if possible and get help.

 

[watglen]

Amen Jerry

 

[JDOFMEMI]

dynahoescott

I hope you didn't think I was throwing stones at you.

I wanted to clarify those things you felt went without saying. I figured you knew, but wanted to spell those things out for those with less or no experience trying to figure it out without getting hurt or killed.
For instance, "of course you would have your teeth in the ground". A look at the video of the 330 above shows he was trying to stop himself with the heel. We see where that got him, but we also see that it is not obvious to some who have never been in that situation before. That was me once, because no one ever thought it important enough to actually say.
Also I have rarely slid very far when my tracks have sunk in. Sinking generates friction, and is the up to a point is a good thing on a steep slope. Just not sinking to a point of tipping. I have taken the worst slides on hard ground, where you cant' get grouser penetration.

I try to frame my posts, especially related to safety, from the point of teaching even the greenest operator. I know there are many who read and don't post, and I want to make sure they have the most to work with, and not assume that important steps are something they already know.

 

[tylermckee]

i put it in rabbit and dive off the edge full speed.

 

[Marksan]

Thankyou everyone for your input.

Made it down in one peice

So i did it the way most suggested, started very very slowly front first with that damm Simon and Garfunkel song ' Slip sliding away' rattling through my head. l kept the bucket a couple of inches of the ground, going over the cross ditches was interesting. On my way out im going to bench it as suggested.

l dont want to start 'slope wars' but, lve got to tell you ive been down front first and back first down the same slope, same conditions, going backwards i dig down below the frost and lower myself down on that lip. l then use the same little trench to haul myself back up.l slipped much more going down front first, and felt less in control, slipped about 15' near the bottom. Funny i used to get a buzz out of being terrified, now i just get plain terrified

..................must be growing up!

Cheers

 

[Marksan]

i put it in rabbit and dive off the edge full speed.

Yep me to, aged 12yrs in someone elses machine.

Thankyou for your inteligent input, on this safety related subject.

 

[EH1]

Thanks for good information around this subject. I`m one of those hobby diggers who gladly wants to learn by reading instead of inventing the wheel when i`m already in a lifethreatning situation. I am sure much of this is natural to the experienced operators but to us who dont dig on daily basis this is helpful.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

i put it in rabbit and dive off the edge full speed.

From your pile you are sitting on in your Avatar pic, that may be entertaining.

When you have experienced working conditions with a slope followed by 500 to 1000 foot dropoffs, you need to approach things differently, or be sure you have at least 6 friends so they can carry you to your final resting place.

 

[dynahoescott]

From your pile you are sitting on in your Avatar pic, that may be entertaining.

When you have experienced working conditions with a slope followed by 500 to 1000 foot dropoffs, you need to approach things differently, or be sure you have at least 6 friends so they can carry you to your final resting place.

Thank you Jerry, for clarifying the point that you were not being sarcastic,I originally thought you were. I felt offended initially because you are obviously very experienced and I could not understand what you did`nt like about my procedure. I haved used it successfully for the last 26-27 years, that being said if it is to steep to maneuver yourself down with the arm and stick, then taking from the high side and placeing it on the low side works well traveling perpendicular to the face is also a excellent way to approach the operation. And I also fully agree with you, once you feel you lost control, get help or be ready to have your wife call on those six friends! I have supreme confidence in my ability but I am also smart enough to know complacency is the enemy! with my experience (as well as others) you have to know when to say when. and solid granite is a whole other story. Once you start sliding it is GAME OVER. Use precaution and common sense. Thank you Scott:beatsme

 

[nzpatch]

I dont like the idea of going down a steep slope bucket first at all, i do it all the time but if the slope is steep and long/wet etc and i have to think this much about it its bucket uphill for me. Your plan of stick all the way out and down hill puts all the weight out front and not on your tracks. When or if it goes bad you dont have the control ,bucket up hill you can steer it rudder like and push as hard down as you like to slow down. Bucket down hill and push to hard down and lift the front up or have the stick come in your in for a sweety time to the bottem. If you can reatch the bottem then bucket first no worrys but if you think its dodgy then play it safe.It alwas goes bad in a hurry.

 

[digger242j]

Another thought, unrelated to the operation of the machine itself--I'm not sure I like the dog being around. I'm not even sure the dog was around during the descent, but I'll tell you what concerns me.

As soon as I saw the pics, I thought of former Pittsburgh Steeler Steve Courson, who died in a tree felling accident on his own property. He has his dog along, and when the tree went in an unanticipated direction, Courson moved to try and save the dog, and was himself killed by the falling tree. Now, I know it's not quite the same thing as felling a tree, but I think it's worth some thought about how you'd react, or how you'd react differently, if the machine started sliding toward the dog.

BTW, great looking dog. I love German Shepards. :thumbsup

 

[Colorado Digger]

good reading on this subject. i am all about bucket first teeth out. i have taken some long rides in excavators and dozer's. after a while you just quit puttin yourself in thoses situations. if it has to be done , ok. stop, breath... think about it. make a plan. make a backup plan. always have another machine handy if it is that sketchy. i do not like getting stuck, digging out, fixing broken iron or calling 911 or hauling a guy to the E.R. thank god! we have had 1 work comp claim in 15 years. 0 G.L claims. no rollovers or anything of that sort
i think once you do this for awhile you get tired of not running the whole tape through. always learn form previous mistakes and keep teaching the young guys