Dozer winching against a deadman ice anchor

[fast_st]

So I have a great little JD 350 with a 24T carco winch on it, I have this tree that's pretty big and leaning toward something I don't want smashed, namely the house, I'd either like it to fall toward the lake or parallel to the house. It got me to wondering, ususally about mid winter, in a month or two, there's usually 1.5 feet of ice on the lake, so I started wondering, if I cut a small hole and dropped in a short I beam with a chain fastened to the middle, how much strain would it take. With the dozer near the shore, the angle from the dozer to a good purchase on the tree is well beyond 45 degrees, I'd like the angle a lot more shallow, say 20 degrees and also much higher up on the tree itself.

My guestimation is that maybe a max of 1 - 1.5 tons of force on the tree would make with friction 2.5 - 3.5 tons of force on the deadman anchor.

Anyone ever tried to use an ice anchor deadman before? I suppose I could put a full pull on the winch and see if it would drag the dozer.

 

[lantraxco]

Let us know how it turns out, you might just end up with the biggest ice cube ever on the end of your line.

 

[Andrew_D]

So you are going to attach the anchor to your blade and use the winch on the tree? (I think that's what you are saying??)

Not saying that it won't work, but from being around tow trucks, wreckers and the like, I remember a story about a wrecker having a heck of a time on a recovery because all he was doing was sliding his wrecker towards the stuck vehicle. Brought in a D8 and parked it in front of the wrecker. Lifted the D8 up on its' ripper points and blade to make an anchor. Attached a cable from the tow hooks on the front of the wrecker to the D8. Figured he was good to go so he started winching on the struck vehicle. By the time he was done, his wrecker was in 2 pieces. Wrecker truck frame just wasn't designed to have that much force running through it. (Better option would have been to put the blade of the D8 up against the back corner of the wrecker so that his outrigger could brace against it.)

Andrew

 

[Delmer]

The only problem I see is how are you going to get your I beam back? put another chain on one end or wait for spring?

You didn't say how long the I beam is, or how thick the ice is, or the quality of the ice. WAG, 7,000# is more than I'd be comfortable with, 4' beam, 1' average ice. I think it will work fine though. You're leaving the dozer on land, and using a snatch block on the ice, right? And are you going to pull the tree right over, or tighten it up, then cut your wedge and back cut, then pull it over? Deciduous or coniferous tree? usually makes a big difference.

When I cut trees in situations like that, I want an automatic transmission vehicle pulling, so it starts slow and keeps pulling all the way down. I wouldn't even think of using a winch, you don't want it to hesitate or change it's mind.

 

[stumpjumper83]

I have worked trees and and dozers and such and I think your accepting unnecessary risk. 350 deere's are not that big of a machine maybe 10k pounds, big trees may actually weight more than your dozer. Also if your planning on using an ice block, the ground under your dozer will be frozen too, not an ideal situation for the traction that's needed to save your house. Steel tracks skate rather well on snow and ice. My suggestion, contact a reputable tree company and have them put the tree on the ground, then you clean up the remaining mess. Second solution go rent a manlift and piece the tree down from the top. Not that your idea will not work but your placing a lot of faith in a lot of unknowns with a high risk level for marginal savings.

 

[bawana]

if the ground isn't frozen too bad hook your cable to the base of the tree,park the dozer where you are going to winch from,put it in low gear and spin the tracks so they dig in.Hook your cable about half way up the tree and put some tension on it.
Notch the tree and make your back cut.leave about 2" for a hinge,drive a wedge in just in case and rip it over.I've done this many times and never had a problem.good luck

 

[hetkind]

Ice is a brittle material and there is no really good way of calculating the failure mechanics without knowing more about the specific ice. Unlike a earthen deadfall where you use the mass of the earth on top, the ice will probably fail along the length of the I-Beam.

Howard

 

[Jonas302]

I guess a lot depends on the tree too it a large tree with some lean just needs guidance to go the other way ,does't take much force or its leaned over 45 degrees over the roof

 

[Twisted]

If you're asking, you should probably get some hands-on help.
BTW- A 6x6 wooden post fits nice and snug in a hole drilled with an 8" auger. I prefer wood and especially round wood when using ice for an anchor point. Steel tends to cut in and fracture the ice causing failure. If you have time to let the post freeze in, even better.

Good luck.

 

[fast_st]

So you are going to attach the anchor to your blade and use the winch on the tree? (I think that's what you are saying??)


Andrew

What I'm planning on is using the winch on the dozer to do the pulling on the tree, understanding that it doubles the load on the deadman and I'm certain the dozer will have plenty of grip or I can back the winch up against a big tree for stability.

 

[fast_st]

If you're asking, you should probably get some hands-on help.
BTW- A 6x6 wooden post fits nice and snug in a hole drilled with an 8" auger. I prefer wood and especially round wood when using ice for an anchor point. Steel tends to cut in and fracture the ice causing failure. If you have time to let the post freeze in, even better.

Good luck.

I can see your point of the wood's flexibility and compressability working with the ice instead of the steel trying to cut through it. I'd guess a 6x6 or piece of phone pole would be excellent. Thanks!

 

[fast_st]

I'm assuming this tree will be a Fooker! so there's a 5 gal pail sized pile of sawdust at the base from the ants, its near a timber framed shed and leaning toward the house, The top is green and bushy but I want to assume this trunk is unstable and likely to do anything, so two good ropes 90 degrees apart should provide a bit of safety and control no matter what the stump does. Its only about 30 inches across at the base but still a bit scary.

 

[fast_st]

if the ground isn't frozen too bad hook your cable to the base of the tree,park the dozer where you are going to winch from,put it in low gear and spin the tracks so they dig in.Hook your cable about half way up the tree and put some tension on it.
Notch the tree and make your back cut.leave about 2" for a hinge,drive a wedge in just in case and rip it over.I've done this many times and never had a problem.good luck

My concern with that is I can't get far enough away in the direction of desired fall Need a redirect. I've done the dig and bury before and it does work very well with the brakes locked.

 

[Willie B]

A big gamble. I use a backhoe to push, a Power Wagon with a winch capable of breaking 28,000LB test cable to pull, whichever offers room. Trees don't usually need a huge amount of force to uproot if great leverage is involved. Reaching 15 feet up the trunk and embedding backhoe bucket teeth in the trunk, I use the extend a hoe to lift the roots on the near side out of the ground. It takes a few repositions, as the extend a hoe travels 40 something inches. I'd estimate 10,000 LBS of force multiplied by leverage in the long trunk. After getting past balance, tree weight helps.

If I understand the winch strategy will depend on a snatch block to reverse the direction of pull. Ice may or may not be enough.

I have an expert I call when I can't use deadly force. In his sixties he climbs like a squirrel. He hates to, says you don't live to be his age doing the Wyle E. Coyote thing, cutting off the branch you're standing on. He will walk around a long while with a plumb bob studying. If the tree leans over the house, he is calculating if he can create a hinge, and fell it at a 90 degree angle to gravity. A 30" Maple leaning over my garage was such a tree. He very CAREFULLY cut exactly a notch level on the face he wanted it to fall. Notch width was 2/3 diameter or less. The upper plane of the notch at steeper than 12:12. The lower plane 6:12. He does a plunge cut level 2" higher than the deepest line of the notch leaving a perfect hinge 15% the tree diameter. This plunge cut leaves at least 10% the diameter on the back intact. Wedges are driven in from both sides until very tight. Working slowly driving wedges, and nibbling at the back cut he opens the back cut. If he opens the back cut all the way, and the tree hasn't fallen, he uses wedges in the back also.

Never use this technique on dead, hard leaning, or very straight grained trees. Oak, or Ash for example, I always wrap a 3/8 grade 70 chain around the trunk above the cut to prevent splitting, and "barber chair" I once knew a logger who lost his head in a literal sense over such an Oak tree.

Willie

PS uprooting trees works well if the ground isn't frozen. Breaking them off is extremely hazardous. It won't be easy to get frozen ice 18" thick, with non frozen ground unless you have a ground blanket. Mine is a 60 foot square tarp with twisted layers of plastic tarp quilted in making it about four inches thick. Spread it before the ground freezes, it never will freeze.

 

[Willie B]

My friend is Superman. He's 75 now, and still does this. He built his house in the center of a pine forest 40 years ago. His wife, several years older has the job of pulling on a rope he has climbed to the top, and tied one end to ensure the tree falls the right direction. As the years have passed, the trees have grown huge. He recognizes his wife is slowing up in her old age. Out of concern for her safety, he bought for her birthday a longer rope.

Willie

 

[fast_st]

That's true love right there!! Hopefully the cold weather will set in and we will have some good ice in a month or so, I've opted to shovel an area clean, keep all the snow off of it in order to help get more ice faster. Almost enough for a car right now so hopefully all in good time, I'm not in any hurry but its really something when all the math works out well. Actually sorting through some old stuff I did find a Chatillon 10K crane scale. should be good for testing make a floaty go-pro to watch the scale just in case.

 

[Willie B]

Sounds like the sort of plan you can tell grandchildren about. What does your tractor weigh? Can you put the tractor on the ice? How thick is the ice? What could possibly go wrong?

 

[fast_st]

Dozer is about 5 ton, not that I would want to sink it in the lake, though, it'd make a fantastic anchor that way.

 

[kevin37b]

Make sure someone is filming this and I want to here the OH **** part .

 

[fast_st]

Make sure someone is filming this and I want to here the OH **** part .

I can do that, when I have those moments they're BIG!! I actually want to have the crane scale on the anchor point to video how much pressure is present


But its been 40 for a week, I might just wade out and go fishing this year.