Excavator Size and Trucking

[Glen1978]

We run a small contracting business. Land clearing, pads, ponds, driveways, etc. Currently have a Kubota skid steer, and Deere 450J LGP machine. To get into bigger clearing we need to put an excavator on. Ive looked at all sizes 30k, 40k, 50k machines. Seems most prefer that 50k machine and its the most popular. Problem is moving it.

We currently move our machinery with Dodge truck and Freightliner single axle cabover with either 25' 14k trailer or 30' 20k dual tandem. We also have a tandem Peterbilt cabover we are building at the moment. So dont have a trailer to move any size hoe and are limited to what the single axle can do. Not 100% sure I could get a 160 size hoe behind the single axle and be within weight tolerances.....at least on axle weights. Texas has one trip OW/OW permits for $210 or a yr one for $4k. Can do 90 day over width but they dont offer a 90 day weight one. So we are contemplating several things.

1.) Is a 30k hoe big enough? Not many big tracts left here....mainly small and most dont want big trees taken down. Keep our single axle and smaller hoe?

2.) Sell the single axle and get the Pete finished (hire out moving in meantime), buy bigger machine. 210 size, 160 size

3.) Do you need a RGN trailer to move a 50k machine or can you run them up ramps on a 30 ton lowboy?

Im just lost on which way we should head. We arent into commercial big work. Most folks around here run 30k machines and seem to be fine. Id like a little more ass I think but seem alot of folks say the 160 machines are tippy due to being narrow/tall.

Sorry for the long rant. Just need a little advice.

 

[skyking1]

Start out with renting. You're asking about whether a 160 is tippy.
"I'd like a little more ass I think ."
It sounds like you don't have the experience to make a good decision about the kind of work you're doing.
Don't make a mistake and buy the wrong hoe and truck and trailer when a smaller machine would have been fine.
The other thing is if you can't make money renting a piece of equipment for a specific job then you're bidding it way too low.
Rent a nice new 160 to see what it feels like with the work you're doing.
If you're disappointed then work your way up.
It really does depend on what you're doing. If you're shoveling a lot of brush into a high sided end dump, then a 160 is really too small.
On the other hand, if you don't do that much of that, the 160 is probably going to be okay for many jobs.

 

[Glen1978]

JUst saying a hoe would make our other equipment shine. Obviously the smaller 30k would be cheaper and easier to move....which is why they fetch a premium it seems.

 

[KSSS]

I can see why you want an excavator. Your limited on what your able to offer with your current set up, at least that is what it appears.

What size? That is always subjective even with all the details, which we could never possibly have, so you get a lot of "what works for us" type answers. So you have to apply that to your operation.

How much do you want to spend? This is a big expense, when you factor getting the ex you want, set up the way you want it and mobilizing it.

I have a 160X4. Its a long stick, with hyd. coupler and prolink thumb, and I dig with a 42" bucket. It can get tippy. However, I can reach within inches of a 210, I just cant move the same amount of material. Digging foundations though, requires throwing material without having to move it twice as often as possible. The long boom 160 does that for me. I can also move it with a lot less hassle. So I like this set up, your mileage may differ. A 145 size machine can make a lot sense as well. Gives you zero tail, a little lighter and better for clearing smaller lots. Downside (at least for me as I considered one) is the lack of reach, but you may not be digging a lot of foundations so reach and bucket size might not matter as much to you. Sure is nice not having to worry about your tail when clearing.

The jobs you list that seem excavator specific are ponds and clearing larger lots. How big are the ponds that you anticipate digging? Size of lots and size of trees and stumps can be a factor as well. Are there any other work you want to do with this excavator? Having a 145 or larger ex, would give you a good top end and adding a 5-6 ton mini ex would give you the capabilty to handle a lot of various sized work.

Solving the size of ex you want helps decide what trailer you want. I personally don't see a need for a truck with a single rear axle when trying to move any of your bigger excavator options. You don't mention having a 3-4 axle dump truck, if you do, you can move up to 160 most everywhere I think with the appropriate trailer.

A lot comes down to money you want to spend and how much and what kind of work the excavator will bring in. Buying a little more ex than you need at the moment can be a good thing in my view. The issue is getting into a 210, at that step you have to justify the added costs involved in mobilization and whether your jobs can justify that size machine.

 

[Glen1978]

Good info KSSS. Thats the kind of conversations Im looking for. Like I said most clearing work around here are smaller 1-10 acre type stuff. Mostly 2-5 acres and want seclusion and big trees left alone. Once you are over that you need multiple big hoes, some big dozers, etc. We arent anywhere near that. SMALL. Me and my two sons run this business. One turns 18 today and the other 16 in August. No foundation digging work here in this area. All slab on grade stuff and use the dozer or skiddy for that type work. Ponds are smallish. 1/4-1/2 acre and 8-10' deep on average. We dont have any dump trucks. I missed a deal on one at auction other day. Still in the market but they are high as a giraffes ass right now and mostly worn out junk.

 

[MG84]

I've been mulling over similar decisions for my small excavating company over the past couple years. I'm generally a one man show but occasionally have a helper. My work is very similar to what you do, although I also build barns and farm fencing. I would like to add a bigger hoe at some point, but just don't have the work to really need it. I currently have a CTL, 3.5 ton mini ex, 450 sized dozer and 4wd backhoe, a couple single axle dump trucks and an 11-ton pintle hitch trailer.

I think you are looking at the situation backwards. Instead of what size hoe do I want to do these larger projects, you should be saying what size will stay busy most and bring in the most money. There is no end to needing a bigger excavator, you could always 'use' a bigger one, especially for clearing land. But right now you don't have any, which I see as a problem for someone in our business.

If I were you I'd be looking for a 6-8 ton machine before getting something larger. Unless you are strictly using it to clear land and dig ponds, I can almost guarantee one that size will rack up more hours and put more money in your pocket than a 160 sized machine. If I didn't have a full size backhoe, I would have one, and may still get one some day. They are big enough for a seasoned operator to 'carefully' take down large trees, heck I cleared 5+ ac with a rented 6 ton excavator a year or so ago. Most of the trees were small 18" or less although there were some in the 20-30" range. I was using my backhoe but the weather turned bad so I needed something on tracks to stay out of the mud. Honestly, the excavator wasn't really as much of a hold up as working by myself, getting out to run the saw, sorting and stacking logs, stoking the burn pile etc. Would a 130-160 have been faster, sure, but due to bad access I'd have had to track it in 3+ mi and the rental would have been a lot more too. The other benefit is you could haul a machine that size with your current truck and trailer. FWIW, I don't do any hourly work, all by the bid, and I make more with my 3.5T mini ex than a lot of guys do running a 210.

 

[Glen1978]

Solid info as well MG84. We did rent a Bobcat E88 or whatever there big "mini" is on a job awhile back. I wasnt impressed with that thing at all. BUT it was a rental from Bobcat so it might have been turned down or something to keep idiots from tearing it up.

 

[CM1995]

OP what's your budget?

A 314 with a blade sounds like a good fit for what you describe. I'd love to have one that size just for the fact it's tag trailer moveable but our work requires the extra lift capacity of a 325 (65-60K) machine.

We hire the majority of our moves out for the heavier iron, move the CTL's and mini ourselves. I can get a 321/325 moved within a 20 mile radius for $350-400. Our projects range from 2-4 weeks so I can't justify the expense of a lowboy for what we do.

What is the lowboy service market look like in your area? I charge a job mobilization as a line item cost on bid. 9 times out of 10 we make a little % on the line item and someone else hauls the tractor.

 

[MG84]

Solid info as well MG84. We did rent a Bobcat E88 or whatever there big "mini" is on a job awhile back. I wasnt impressed with that thing at all. BUT it was a rental from Bobcat so it might have been turned down or something to keep idiots from tearing it up.

I've rented Bobcat mini excavators in the past and wasn't overly impressed. In the 6-8T range Kubota and Takeuchi are hard to beat. That size also pairs well with a CTL or 450 size dozer in my experience.

I also meant to say in my last post, buy something you'll use everyday and rent a 160-210, delivered, for the big jobs. Don't have to worry about trucking, maintenance, etc, just send it back when you're done.

 

[Glen1978]

OP what's your budget?

A 314 with a blade sounds like a good fit for what you describe. I'd love to have one that size just for the fact it's tag trailer moveable but our work requires the extra lift capacity of a 325 (65-60K) machine.

We hire the majority of our moves out for the heavier iron, move the CTL's and mini ourselves. I can get a 321/325 moved within a 20 mile radius for $350-400. Our projects range from 2-4 weeks so I can't justify the expense of a lowboy for what we do.

What is the lowboy service market look like in your area? I charge a job mobilization as a line item cost on bid. 9 times out of 10 we make a little % on the line item and someone else hauls the tractor.

SInce we have started this business, for whatever reason, Ive liked to keep them in the "its gotta work one day a month to pay for itself" range. I dont know why I guage off of that. Maybe it just puts it into an easy persepctive for me. With that said id say in the $50-80k range. Right machine might could go a smidge more. But I need to budget a trailer into this as well. Id like to be able to buy something that could go on a normal dove/ramp 20T lowboy and not get into detach neck territory.

 

[skyking1]

there is a lot of gratification in renting something big and nice.

 

[MG84]

How many hours per year of work do you have for a 160-210 size hoe?

 

[Glen1978]

How many hours per year of work do you have for a 160-210 size hoe?

I wish I had that crystal ball.

 

[skyking1]

all the more reason to check out rental availability. I have several options in the greater Seattle area. If you are in the sticks a bit, it can get more thin.
My boss won't rent unless I can't do it any other way. Sometimes that is tripping over a dollar to save a dime in this business.

 

[kingkong0192]

I'm in Connecticut and am in a similar boat as you. There is no perfect size for everything. Generally machines in the 12-16 ton range are going to hold value like crazy because they're a really good size and a super capable machine and can be moved without permits or specialized equipment. Normally they go right behind your tri-axle dump truck and can be brought to the job site behind that.

If you do end up buying a larger machine like a 210 just pay someone to move it. I can get my 210 moved across town for $200. I can move it myself but quite honestly for $200 it's easier just calling the guy and being like "Hey i need this machine brought here" and it's done. The only nice part about having my own truck and trailer to move it is convenience.

I would personally steer you towards a 12-14 ton machine for now preferably with a blade, coupler, and hydraulic thumb. If you don't have a mini get one. I have a Kubota U45 and that machine is always working.

 

[Georgia Iron]

I just recently gota 160 size machine. It has a list of issues i am working on fixing.


It weights 37,500 lbs and I like it. You can move it with a tandem dump. I had to fill out an irs form for the road tax
But you are exempt if you pull it less than 5k miles a year. I don't think I could get a much heavier machine because it puts 30k on the trailer tandems and 30 k on the truck tandems and 34k is max for the highway.

I have a mini and the guys are right. But I can see the old machine doing some good work pulling stumps and working in wetter areas. I am in the process of looking at deepening a wet area for some duck habitat. So I am probably going to bury this thing in the muck...

It is strong and the size feels real good for a middle of the road machine size. Works great with a tandem. I pretty much could get what ever I wanted and I got this.

 

[Glen1978]

I'm in Connecticut and am in a similar boat as you. There is no perfect size for everything. Generally machines in the 12-16 ton range are going to hold value like crazy because they're a really good size and a super capable machine and can be moved without permits or specialized equipment. Normally they go right behind your tri-axle dump truck and can be brought to the job site behind that.

If you do end up buying a larger machine like a 210 just pay someone to move it. I can get my 210 moved across town for $200. I can move it myself but quite honestly for $200 it's easier just calling the guy and being like "Hey i need this machine brought here" and it's done. The only nice part about having my own truck and trailer to move it is convenience.

I would personally steer you towards a 12-14 ton machine for now preferably with a blade, coupler, and hydraulic thumb. If you don't have a mini get one. I have a Kubota U45 and that machine is always working.

I just recently gota 160 size machine. It has a list of issues i am working on fixing.
View attachment 301181

I weights 37,500 lbs and I like it. You can move it with a tandem dump. I had to fill out an irs form for the road tax
But you are exempt if you pull it less than 5k miles a year. I don't think I could get a much heavier machine because it puts 30k on the trailer tandems and 30 k on the truck tandems and 34k is max for the highway.

I have a mini and the guys are right. But I can see the old machine doing some good work pulling stumps and working in wetter areas. I am in the process of looking at deepening a wet area for some duck habitat. So I am probably going to bury this thing in the muck...

I dont have a mini. What all do you guys keep them busy on? Ive got a guy that works gor me some that begs me to buy one. Says we can keep it busy. More I think on this I dont want to have to have a RGN to move a machine. Id rather buy a 20-30 ton doved lowboy and haul that way or behind a tandem dump truck. Just makes way more sense honestly.

 

[Georgia Iron]

Concrete footings and laying smaller pipe and driveway pipes and i have dug up a lot of stumps, some way to big. It is a wonder the machine still works as much as the rear end is up in the air.

You can't tell it but that's about 4' down

 

[kingkong0192]

What is your tandem axle peterbilt going to be? A dump truck? if it is build a pintle plate for the back of it and get a 20 ton tag trailer. You can put a 12-14 ton machine on it legally and move it around. This way you only have to buy the trailer as your truck will be getting used for other stuff in your business and not just sitting around waiting for you to need to move a machine. The only way i would personally add a tractor is if you plan on using it for dump trailer work or for something that will make it make you money when it's not being used to move around your equipment.

As for my mini i use it for a lot of stuff. Really small clearing jobs, trenching for utilities (i do a lot of this), septic work, installing drainage or doing driveway pipes. Just a lot of stuff honestly. I have a hammer for mine too. A lot of times it's nicer having a smaller machine. It's no slouch.

 

[bam1968]

My first lowboy was a 1968 3 axle fixed neck Hyster (96 inches wide) with a short beaver tail and short ramps. Moved a Cat 225 many times. Did it work?...... Yes. Was it fun?..... No. Eventually traded that in on a Whitzco 3 axle ground bearing detach. That was a big improvement but had a handful of issues with it being ground bearing. Now I have a non ground bearing Trailking that has been flawless.

If you end up with a bigger excavator a detach or folding gooseneck trailer would be my choice. Just my $.02