Sometimes salesman are too focused on selling to the lowest price point. Meaning they dont want to suggest high flow because it adds another couple K to the price of a machine. Most having never been an owner or operator of an excavation business they cant sometimes see the value of spending more upfront to be more productive which makes more money throughout the ownership of the machine. They dont want to lose a sale to someone else that successfully talks you out of high flow and sells at a lower price point. So when you talk to some of these guys just keep in mind their prospective, the vast majority mean well they just dont have an in-depth understanding of this business in some cases.
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First equipment purchase
- Thread starter jakelly
- Start date
Sometimes salesman are too focused on selling to the lowest price point. Meaning they dont want to suggest high flow because it adds another couple K to the price of a machine. Most having never been an owner or operator of an excavation business they cant sometimes see the value of spending more upfront to be more productive which makes more money throughout the ownership of the machine. They dont want to lose a sale to someone else that successfully talks you out of high flow and sells at a lower price point. So when you talk to some of these guys just keep in mind their prospective, the vast majority mean well they just dont have an in-depth understanding of this business in some cases.
jakelly
Active Member
How much time will the lack of two speed cost me during snow removal? The trenching shouldn't be slowed too much.
stuvecorp
Senior Member
In snow you have to have two speed. The other thing is you need the speed to 'roll' the snow sometimes and a single speed machine can't do that. If you go hourly you wouldn't want two speed but I would bet someone bidding against you will come in with a two speed machine. If you bid per time the two speed allows you to get done quicker. Now to set myself apart from other guys I'm running oversized tires to be even faster.
I had a 70XT also and it was a great machine but no two speed, cab and hyd. quick tach was killing me so I traded in.
The two speed in snow removal is pretty important. Some depends on the type of contracts your wanting to go after. Large open lots and you would want two speed. Apartment complex type contracts maybe not as big of a deal (tighter areas,cant go fast running around all the cars). Overall though you never regret that you have two speed.
Two speed is a nonissue when trenching or pushing dirt.
Two speed is a nonissue when trenching or pushing dirt.
dave esterns
Senior Member
so exactly what happens when you people hit an obstruction plowing snow 12 mph with your skid steer?
so apparently terex is giving away their skid steers. new rts60 or whatever is 28k at the local dealer all loaded down. similar case would be 34k. is it true that terex skids still have pilot controls? cuz that would be significant.
so apparently terex is giving away their skid steers. new rts60 or whatever is 28k at the local dealer all loaded down. similar case would be 34k. is it true that terex skids still have pilot controls? cuz that would be significant.
stuvecorp
Senior Member
Seatbelt is your friend...but also try to keep your blade from hitting cracks straight on. I'm rolling more like 15+ mph...
As for the Terex, the controls may be nice but the rest of the machine not so much. How do you feel about the Cat control pattern Dave?
stuvecorp
Senior Member
Something I should have mentioned before, you have to figure out what will bring more money in. Is the trenching more profitable or plowing? In a perfect world you can find a machine that can cover both.
jakelly
Active Member
Finding two speed, with high flow, cab, heat, and maybe A/C in a low hour machine at 25k or under, has proven to be near impossible. (When I put it that way I can understand why, smile) Consequently, I have spent some time thinking about what options are most important to my business, and you guys are suggesting the same thoughts I have been using. The plowing market is not highly competitive in my area, trenching is what I want to do and much higher profitability, I can do smaller lots well enough with one speed. I found a 440 with 970 hours, heat, and high flow that I think I'll move on.
dave esterns
Senior Member
i plan on switching to the cat pattern on the next machine. it is seriously flawed, but im willing to sacrifice for convenience.
If your looking at a newer machine with E/H you can H or ISO. While I am certainly and unapologetically partial to the H pattern, I think it just makes more sense than putting the entire machine movement in one control handle.
dave esterns
Senior Member
ah well i plan on using iso and h about half and half just for the heck of it. h pattern is clearly harder to control than iso when u got e-h.
negative Ghost rider.
jakelly
Active Member
What year did Case make the controls changeable? Are all 440s changeable?
stuvecorp
Senior Member
I think that is only on the new ones. You could order a Series 3 with pilots in either control pattern but not sure before that?
I've been reading this post for a while now and i am confused. Please explain the "H" pattern, is that Case style? Cat controls (which i have both on my machine) is pilot correct? Also, what is the difference between e/h and servo control?
I am not totally sure what i have. I have a newer 2009 cat with controls that are a little slow to respond and a 2006 that is much better...... Any idea which is which? I think i know the answer but i would like to know for sure.
I am not totally sure what i have. I have a newer 2009 cat with controls that are a little slow to respond and a 2006 that is much better...... Any idea which is which? I think i know the answer but i would like to know for sure.
dave esterns
Senior Member
ah the good old control confusion.
h pattern is case style, and most other brands standard controls as well. pilot controls (normally iso) can be configured this way most of the time if that is what you want.
pilot controls can be electric or hydraulic depending on how you define pilot. generally when people say pilot controls they are hydraulic.
none of the manufacturers seem to brag about which one they have (besides terex).
servo is different than pilot or electric. servo usually is not configured in iso. except the t bar gehls if you wanna call it that. servo, pilot, and electric, to the best of my knowlege are similar in that they all have a hydraulic piston component that is hooked up to the hydro swash plate that controls the swash plate. obviously with manual controls you just have a direct link to the swash plate. with servo you have direct linkage to that piston. with pilot you have more hydraulic circuitry and valving and such at your controls that controls that piston. if you dont have a c series cat, you have hydraulic pilot controls, im not sure why some of them have the delay and some dont if they are both hydraulic. sounds like you might have one c series w electric controls and one hydraulic pilot controlled one. to an extent, on the electric controls they can adjust the response speed at your dealer to get you machine acting more like a hydraulic pilot one.
electro hydraulic controls have nothing but wires going from your controls to your controller.
it seems you will find most people prefer hydraulic controls. the jcb we had here had hydraulic pilot controls and they were sweet; im not convinced the new electric ones will be as sweet for 2012. the only advantage i see to electric is more control at lower engine rpm, and maybe better cold weather control on startup.
h pattern is case style, and most other brands standard controls as well. pilot controls (normally iso) can be configured this way most of the time if that is what you want.
pilot controls can be electric or hydraulic depending on how you define pilot. generally when people say pilot controls they are hydraulic.
none of the manufacturers seem to brag about which one they have (besides terex).
servo is different than pilot or electric. servo usually is not configured in iso. except the t bar gehls if you wanna call it that. servo, pilot, and electric, to the best of my knowlege are similar in that they all have a hydraulic piston component that is hooked up to the hydro swash plate that controls the swash plate. obviously with manual controls you just have a direct link to the swash plate. with servo you have direct linkage to that piston. with pilot you have more hydraulic circuitry and valving and such at your controls that controls that piston. if you dont have a c series cat, you have hydraulic pilot controls, im not sure why some of them have the delay and some dont if they are both hydraulic. sounds like you might have one c series w electric controls and one hydraulic pilot controlled one. to an extent, on the electric controls they can adjust the response speed at your dealer to get you machine acting more like a hydraulic pilot one.
electro hydraulic controls have nothing but wires going from your controls to your controller.
it seems you will find most people prefer hydraulic controls. the jcb we had here had hydraulic pilot controls and they were sweet; im not convinced the new electric ones will be as sweet for 2012. the only advantage i see to electric is more control at lower engine rpm, and maybe better cold weather control on startup.
OK, thats what i thought. I have a 2009 246C and the controls are actually worse when it is cold out. I would say they are electrical, i recall seeing someone on here saying they could be adjusted at the dealer. The smoother machine is a 2006 246B, i would guess it is hydraulic... because of the response. I dont think i would buy another electronic controlled machine with given the performance of the newer machine. However, i wouldnt say anything bad about the machine other than that, way more power, comfort, etc.
Not trying to steal anyones thread...... but Dave, did you ever buy the infamous JCB???????
Not trying to steal anyones thread...... but Dave, did you ever buy the infamous JCB???????
dave esterns
Senior Member
u mean to tell me that in 0 degrees F your pilot controls work better than electric? ah, we frantically tried to buy a jcb before the end of the year, but again, they pushed off the release date a couple more months for the 205. maybe we should look into terex even tho they are crap except for their sweet pilot controls. if the case 430 was the same as a case 435 that would be tempting but its not. although i like the quite cab of the jcb, that is a big deal for me.