heavy traffic

[littleroadgrade]

In the 23 years I've been with county secondary roads things have realy changed as far as traffic count and heavy loads. The gravel roads we maintain were designed in the early 1900's my opinion not designed for the loads they are getting now days. In our county we have over 700 hog confinment buildings sites some with multible buildings, semi's delivering feed and transporting hogs in and out and to top that off when its time to haul manure they use 7000 to 9000 gallon tankers up and back on the roads. Our engineer did some research and found out that these buildings only generate around 250 dollars a year to our department the rest goes to schools and other county entities. Farms that do not raise hogs raise crops, when I started this job they raised the crop to feed there own livestock now its all hauled from farm to market with semi's.
Don't take my venting wrong way we are a agriculture community and I they are just trying to make a living like the rest of us, but at times I feel like we are just chasing our tails.
Would like to here what other counties are doing to take care of there roads, we have lots of ideas but at this time they are very time consuming and expensive.
THANKS

 

[Steve Frazier]

Interesting post. The county I live in here has no unpaved roads, the only unpaved roads are at the town level and they are few and far between. The unpaved roads are those that go over the mountains where there are 2 or 3 houses and that's it. Probably just 4 or 5 miles total in my town.

 

[Vahighwayman]

I can relate to that. When I was with VDOT in Virginia, 95% of the roads and highways and interstates where maintained by VDOT and still are. In the county that I was stationed at, had out of the 341 miles of road, 85 miles were gravel so being the only grader man stationed there kept me busy at times. The remaining 5% of roads not maintained by VDOT are in the bigger cities such as Richmond, Charlottesville, etc where they had their own DPW. The funding for VDOT and their budget and road maintenance comes from fuel taxes such from gasoline,diesel,kero etc and not state income taxes or property taxes. Granted some of the gravel roads had heavy traffic that needed machining at least every other week and then there were roads that the only traffic on them were from the people that lived on them or loggers. Now if you want to talk about roads being tore up, have a few loggers hold a operation on that road and make sure you have a well stocked supply of crusher run!

 

[Galute]

Hello everyone. Been lurking here for a while finally got registered. I really appreciate all the info provided by all the old salts on this forum. Some really great stuff here. I hope to be able to contribute to some of the discussions at some point but with 25 years of experience operating heavy equipment I still find myself learning from you guys everytime I read this forum.

I know what you mean about the increase in traffic. Our county is the largest county in the state square mile wise but it's one of the least populated so the county has rather limited funds to work with. In the last couple years we are going thru a natural gas boom. There is a hugh increase in very heavy traffic on our roads that are not designed for it. I personally saw one two mile stretch of decent chip sealed road with very light traffic normally turned into a 4WD only mud bog in a matter of just two hours. At first the county judge was having a very difficult time of dealing with it but after a couple years of it with the help of the gas companies, both money and equipment wise, we are starting to recover from it. Another problem both the municipalities and local construction companies had was a loss of operators that quit their jobs to go for the fast big bucks the gas companies were offering. The economy slow down has helped with that problem. The gas companies have cut way back on new projects which has sent a lot of the operators packing back to their old jobs. Sorry for the long winded first post.

Later, Rick.

 

[AtlasRob]

.............. Sorry for the long winded first post.

Later, Rick.

Welcome aboard Galute, thanks for your input, that aint long winded its very informative especially for someone like me that lives in a country with only blacktop roads................. Well there might be a couple of tracks in the wilds of Scotland

That said we are getting a similar problem with heavy trucks using the small backroads and lanes to access farms, small holdings and small industrial units with the result that the shoulders are giving way, the surface then cracks under the stress the water gets in and the rest as they say is history.

 

[stumpjumper83]

Im from a section of pensylvania where dirt roads are very common, though I don't know the ratio of paved to dirt.

One solution that out local townships have come up with is to make vehicles over a certain weight bond the roads. Basically any cdl rig traveling on certain roads in the county must bond that road to me able to travel it, or face fines, etc. We also close the roads to vehicles over 10k or so for spring breakup.

I dunno if it helps but thats how the townships handle it here. Then again all the loggers, farmers, and contractors whos paychecks depend on getting over these dirt roads have 4x4 pickups.

 

[bear]

Around here there are quite a few gravel roads. We had a problem a few years ago with the "good 'ol boys" working together and making messes. One is the road I live on. We finally got approved for some chip and seal and one of the idiots that lives here decided most of the blacktop would go on his tourist friends driveways and thier neighborhoods area rather than the road it was supposed to go on. Luckily we got new magistrates and county officers(?)/employees who have put a stop to that kind of thing. I wish I hadn't been on the road at that time but I prolly would have been in jail for assault or something. Seems like these non working a holes cause more grief everytime I have to deal with them. back to topic I guess my road is semi-paved.

 

[sdPete]

Lose/Lose situation

.
Don't take my venting wrong way we are a agriculture community and I they are just trying to make a living like the rest of us, but at times I feel like we are just chasing our tails.
Would like to here what other counties are doing to take care of there roads, we have lots of ideas but at this time they are very time consuming and expensive.
THANKS

You are correct, the roads have not kept up with the times. Getting the $$ to catch up is a challenge. Tax increases are not popular. Some heavy road users will help with costs, most figure it is the government's job to maintain roads. Load limits are fine but who would enforce them?

Taking a long term perspective here, but think a decade or two into the future and what might you see? My guess is that if nothing is done now the problem will be worse. Might have to swallow hard and get the elected officials to put more into the roads. The choice is for someone to deal with the situation now or pass it on to the next group of leaders. Too many folks unwilling to take the heat so they do nothing, we are fortunate there were many bold leaders in the history of our country as today we enjoy the benefit of their work.

 

[RoadDoc]

Might have to swallow hard and get the elected officials to put more into the roads. The choice is for someone to deal with the situation now or pass it on to the next group of leaders. Too many folks unwilling to take the heat so they do nothing, we are fortunate there were many bold leaders in the history of our country as today we enjoy the benefit of their work.

Amen.

We've all been hearing our state agencies beg the federal government to rework the funding scenarios for years. They have stated that they are going to run out of money in almost every media venue that I can think of for years. It pretty much was a foregone conclusion in the months before the stimulous bill. What is being done now to insure the funding is there after a trillion dollar bailout bill? By future, I mean in three to five years if not sooner. The funding issues were not popular for Washington before and therefore fell through the cracks. The issue has to be delt with permanently, now.

Bear mentioned "good ole boys." There was a time when the good ole boy system worked to get things through red tape and deal with problems quickly. I still think that contractors and politicians need to work together to get through tough times, like now, with funding issues. I don't like seeing lettings where there is only one bidder on job after job like I see in some states, though. I'm even hearing stories of major contractors getting change orders signed before they even sign the original contract..... Holding the agency essentially hostage because the contractor is the only company geographically able to reach a project with materials. I'm sure you all have heard equally hair raising tales.

One can't expect the politicians to control themselves on earmarks when mega contracting / funding /engineering entities are trying to get laws passed to circumvent competitive bidding on mega projects. In the end, granted it may be way down the line, the taxpayers will end up owning or maintianing or reworking said mega projects no matter how exotic the payout scheme will be... Lets not let the Wall Street mindset poison our industry, too.

I've been thinking term limits are the only way to inspire real Americans with real backbone to take up elected office. They would have nothing to fear except the legacy they left behind. No time wasted raising funds for the next election. Less owed to professional lobbyists and major political donors..... Think about the founding fathers going to a far off city at their own expense to serve their fellow citizens.... Knowing if they failed all they had to look forward to was a firing squad or a noose.

I can't agree with sdPete more. :usa

 

[RoadDoc]

Off the Soapbox, Back on Topic

In the 23 years I've been with county secondary roads things have realy changed as far as traffic count and heavy loads. The gravel roads we maintain were designed in the early 1900's my opinion not designed for the loads they are getting now days. In our county we have over 700 hog confinment buildings sites some with multible buildings, semi's delivering feed and transporting hogs in and out and to top that off when its time to haul manure they use 7000 to 9000 gallon tankers up and back on the roads. Our engineer did some research and found out that these buildings only generate around 250 dollars a year to our department the rest goes to schools and other county entities. Farms that do not raise hogs raise crops, when I started this job they raised the crop to feed there own livestock now its all hauled from farm to market with semi's.
Don't take my venting wrong way we are a agriculture community and I they are just trying to make a living like the rest of us, but at times I feel like we are just chasing our tails.
Would like to here what other counties are doing to take care of there roads, we have lots of ideas but at this time they are very time consuming and expensive.
THANKS

Is it that there is not enough base material, or R.O.W., or drainage, or all of the above?

 

[littleroadgrade]

all of the above

Is it that there is not enough base material, or R.O.W., or drainage, or all of the above?

Like I said we are a argriculture community most of our roads are built from black soil cause that all thats there is so base is our largest problem, besides that 70 percent of the county is pretty flat so drainage is a problem. the 07/08 winter realy bit us in the butt all the freeze thaws we had totaly murdered most of our roads and we haven't completely recovered from that yet.
The norm for R.O.W. in our area is 66 ft. but there is alot of 44 ft.
The only major plan we are considering is to cut the top foot or more off, lay down that fabric, put down a layer of 4 or 5 inch gabion stone, put the top we cut off back on then 600 to 1000 ton to the mile of road stone.
Time and funds are what is holding this plan up.
THANKS ideas needed

 

[RoadDoc]

Fabric sounds good to me. Its a great solution to crud base but a lot of labor and equip. hours to put it under every thing. Without knowing what is originally there in the road section now, as far as aggregate, has anyone considered reclaiming the material with a stabilizing additive or just plain ole cement or lime? Maybe a chip seal on top of that? If you added some fresh base material to the scenario to raise the elevation/crown a little there may be some improvement in the overall drainage problem as well.

Does that make sense? :beatsme

 

[JonesBros]

I can relate to that. When I was with VDOT in Virginia, 95% of the roads and highways and interstates where maintained by VDOT and still are. In the county that I was stationed at, had out of the 341 miles of road, 85 miles were gravel so being the only grader man stationed there kept me busy at times. The remaining 5% of roads not maintained by VDOT are in the bigger cities such as Richmond, Charlottesville, etc where they had their own DPW. The funding for VDOT and their budget and road maintenance comes from fuel taxes such from gasoline,diesel,kero etc and not state income taxes or property taxes. Granted some of the gravel roads had heavy traffic that needed machining at least every other week and then there were roads that the only traffic on them were from the people that lived on them or loggers. Now if you want to talk about roads being tore up, have a few loggers hold a operation on that road and make sure you have a well stocked supply of crusher run!

Not trying to hijack but what county did you work for?

 

[John C.]

This is a very interesting post indeed.

In my state, Washington, the problem in my view is not money at all but priority. This state is split in half by the Cascade mountain range with most of the population on the west side and near the sea ports. The political will is also split two ways with the liberal base on the west and conservative base on the east.

The west side has a very good road system with major freeways and few miles of government maintained unpaved roads. The east side will usually have paved state highways and gravel county roads. The bulk of the money is spend on the west side.

The real rub though is much of the money for roads on the west side goes into items other than paving and maintenance. We have a law that requires one percent of the money for any government project designated for art. One freeway job on I 90 has several hundred thousand dollars of bronze salmon sculptures hanging on freeway overpasses. I'm suspicious because it is in the heart of an affluent neighborhood but since I'm blue collar, I guess I can't appreciate how my tax dollars look in bronze.

The latest scam is the state paying to install sound barriers along freeways for home owners that paid under market value for their property based on the location of the home. Last I heard the tax payers were getting soaked to the tune of 25 million dollars.

How do you explain that to an east side grader operator running a ten year old grader with mulitple miles of road to grade everyday and the county can't afford to have the circle adjusted and new wear plates installed let alone repair a major failure.

I agree that term limits might change some priorities.

 

[RoadDoc]

We have a law that requires one percent of the money for any government project designated for art. One freeway job on I 90 has several hundred thousand dollars of bronze salmon sculptures hanging on freeway overpasses. I'm suspicious because it is in the heart of an affluent neighborhood but since I'm blue collar, I guess I can't appreciate how my tax dollars look in bronze.

:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead

 

[Grader4me]

Like I said we are a argriculture community most of our roads are built from black soil cause that all thats there is so base is our largest problem, besides that 70 percent of the county is pretty flat so drainage is a problem. the 07/08 winter realy bit us in the butt all the freeze thaws we had totaly murdered most of our roads and we haven't completely recovered from that yet.
The norm for R.O.W. in our area is 66 ft. but there is alot of 44 ft.
The only major plan we are considering is to cut the top foot or more off, lay down that fabric, put down a layer of 4 or 5 inch gabion stone, put the top we cut off back on then 600 to 1000 ton to the mile of road stone.
Time and funds are what is holding this plan up.
THANKS ideas needed

I might as well add my opinion. You mention that drainage is a problem. Is there no way that you can do some ditching to keep the water away from the road? To me this is the most important part.
I mentioned this before on here somewhere..we had a section of road that would absolutely turn upside down in the spring time. This section would become impassible for traffic. We ditched both sides, shaped the road up, proper crown etc. Laid down the fabric and covered with approx. 18 to 24 inches of gravel. Never had any problem with this section again.

Just make sure you get lots of cover and don't skimp on this. We also did a road and only used a few inches of cover due to lack of funds. After a year or so I would catch some of the material when grading the road :Banghead

Now, with no type of drainage :beatsme I don't know how this will work for you.

 

[littleroadgrade]

ROADDOC could you explain the process of reclaiming and adding cement or lime sounds like it would make a good road surface.
GRADER4ME we've been doing alot of ditching the past year(finaly) the operators in our county have been begging for this for a long time but with almost 800 miles of rock roads it should have been started long ago the engineer department kind of dropped the ball on this, as I said before most of the roads are built from black soil not a good base as clay would be,ditching does help.
We haven't tried the fabric yet some farmers have put it in there driveways to there hog buildings but do not put enough material on it, I see were it would be a problem if a blade would catch it that stuff must be tough.
Just how expensive is the fabric if its resonable in the long run could be well worth it, if someone has had experience with it let us know what you think and maybe a cost per mile.
THANKS
Please keep the idea's coming I'm loving this!!!

 

[Engineer4255]

the fabric, depending on which brand and weight averages $300 for a 12-16 foot wide roll. It works well when its used properly, and has sufficient cover. Dont try and get away with just 6 inches or less. You'll end up catching it with the cutting edge and tearing it, causing you more problems. As far as cement or lime goes, I have used it alot in poor soils. In fact, thats what we used here until the last 10 years to convert dirt roads into tar and chipped roads. Go in first and establish your ditches, get all your drainage working, then plow the road with the corner of your blade about 10-14 inches deep (rippers work, but bar plowing busts the soil up better. Then you need an applicator truck, we used a cement tanker with pressure bar, and apply the cement. The application rate depends on type of soil and moisture content. Then you plow the cement in to mix with the soil. We had available at that time Rex tractors with what was know as Cement mixers on the rear. A large rotor tiller was what they were, Grader works also, but the rexes could be mixing one area while the grader started to lay the road away. Add water after the first mix. After mixing about 3 times, back and forth across the roadway, you start laying in away. Grade the road as you normally would with a nice crown, (3/8 to 1/4 inch per foot), then roll it in with a roller. We used rubber tired rollers as they worked nice with the wet soil. Normally the next day you would come in and place a coat of liquid asphalt on top just to keep the dust down and help seal the top. Then in a couple of days after it cured come back and place tar and chip. In Sussex county, their spec called for liquid asphalt instead of cement. Same method, little messier though. I have also used lime or calcium chloride to tighten up a soft area in a parking lot, or smaller areas.

 

[RoadDoc]

Reclaiming is a process that mills/tills the existing aggregate/surface material of a road section with all or a portion of its base (aggregate base in your case not the black soil). There are emulsions of asphalt materials that can be blended into the material as it is being processed by the soil stabilizing machine. This adds strength to the old materials and reworks them to form a fresh base for a new surface. There are as many different combinations of emulsions, base depths, and surface types that you can think of. Really depends on what you have existing, your budget, what is available to you geographically, and what your engineer's preferences may be. Many companies that are primarily milling contractors have crews that do reclamation or can recommend a contractor that is set up for reclamation. They could steer you to the exact process that would best suit your needs.

The process is popular because you reuse 100 percent of what you've already invested in the road section. Usually get away with a very minimum new surface section saving money and getting better performance than what was originally there. I've read about so many different ways of going about it that I am sure there is a combination that is probably already being used in or near your market. If your road section is extremely thin, which I can't imagine that it is after all of these years, I thought you could mix cement into your base soil to stabilize it or use lime to dry it if it is only a matter of too much moisture when working the grade. Odds are there is already a substancial investment in aggregate on your roads and an asphalt emulsion would really beef those materials into a strong base. If money is really tight you may be able to just cover that with a chip seal and get better service than just a gravel road.

My humble opinion is if you don't have drainage then your wasting time and money on everything else until you get it..... Too much moisture in your road section, unless you're an ice road trucker, is your enemy sooner or later. It has to have somewhere to go....period.

Fabrics vary a lot. The pricing may be better when doing an entire road section for the length of the road. Man that's a lot of material to lay down, though. For deep base repairs and underdrain sections I see the material installed price anywhere from one to three dollars a square yard in several states. Haven't ever priced doing a whole road before. I've heard of placing fabrics under asphalt overlays but, I think that is a completely different fabric....

I've seen fabric used under gravel on private property before. It really let's you get thin on the aggregate. That's awesome until you decide to use your grader to blade up the driveway...... Every little hole I put in that fabric (before I realized what I was doing and stopped) turned into the nastiest potholes you'd ever want to see. I ruined that driveway. Please, please, please make sure you get plenty of cover over a smooth tightly stretched fabric if you go that route. And let the guys know where they need to be watchful for your fabric when patrolling and ditching in the future. Just like watching for underdrain outlet pipes.....

 

[Grader4me]

Every little hole I put in that fabric (before I realized what I was doing and stopped) turned into the nastiest potholes you'd ever want to see. I ruined that driveway. Please, please, please make sure you get plenty of cover over a smooth tightly stretched fabric if you go that route.

Yup, the stuff just seems to leap out of the road and grab onto your moldboard. Not to bad if you catch it with the point or heel of the blade, but when it catches in the center...and by the time you notice it...:Banghead

Cover it well...