Horizontal grinders?

[dirthog28]

I was wondering if anybody has any experience at the grinding business, the do's and dont's. I've worked around other subcontractors that do this kind of work, one guy ran all bandit's, other guy ran peterson pacific grinder I see Vermeer and Morbark seem like decent machines. Is any of them better than the other one or just comes down to dealer. How hard is it to find paper mills or plants that burn wood chips for their boilers? Grindering reduces the amount of material, but still alot of trucking to get rid of them.

 

[bigblueox]

i like duratech machines. they have a much nicer fit and finish!

 

[australian pete]

I was wondering if anybody has any experience at the grinding business, the do's and dont's. I've worked around other subcontractors that do this kind of work, one guy ran all bandit's, other guy ran peterson pacific grinder I see Vermeer and Morbark seem like decent machines. Is any of them better than the other one or just comes down to dealer. How hard is it to find paper mills or plants that burn wood chips for their boilers? Grindering reduces the amount of material, but still alot of trucking to get rid of them.

hi dirthog, i run a vermeer TX6000, previously had a vermeer hg 525 on wheels, i find the vermeer a good machine the TX 6000 on tracks is a heaps better machine than the 525, productivity is around 50% higher and being on tracks makes it much easier to manouvreor around jobs, i have never owned other grinders however from what i hear they all have thier good and bad points.

 

[Iron Horse]

I too am interested in a radio remote grinder to follow my excavator with vertical tree extraction grab around . Problem is , the trees come out roots and all . Would the dirt on the roots do damage to the rotor and hammers ?

 

[bigblueox]

the dirt has an affect on the hammers and tips. the rocks are really what do them in though. it's my experience that if the stumps are moderatley clean you don't see excess wear, keeping in mind this is a consumable part . meaning it's not if they are going to be replaced its when.

 

[australian pete]

I too am interested in a radio remote grinder to follow my excavator with vertical tree extraction grab around . Problem is , the trees come out roots and all . Would the dirt on the roots do damage to the rotor and hammers ?

short answer is a little bit of dirt is not a worry, when we clear we push trees over stump, roots and all, if the tree breaks off we dig the stump out with a ripper fitted to the excavator,we then put all the trees in a windrow and then shear it in to pieces about 1 metre long, large stumps are sheared too, by that time most of the dirt has fallen off,trying to put whole trees and unsheared big stumps through a grinder is very slow, they need to be sheared, i use a tree recyclers hydraulic shear, the manual for my grinder says you can put material up to 42 inches in diamitar, however if you put stuff that large through it you get very low productivity, i find it cheaper to downsize the timber with an excavator worth around $100 per hour than trying to put large timber through a grinder with a 630 HP cat engine worth $500 per hour, grinder can use up tp 70 litres of fule per hour.

 

[Iron Horse]

How do you get people to pay that amount of money for the grinder . I'm having trouble getting $150ph for the excavator and grab . I do'nt know how i would get another $500ph .

 

[dirthog28]

So Pete, do you guys do the clearing also or just come in and grind. You mentioned that you have an excavator with shear go through and cut the stumps off, one guy I've seen before goes through with one excavator and clears and stacks it all, then second excavator goes through and grinds everthings up, but has a labor with chain saw to cut stumps, claims the mill he hauls chips to won't take it if he grinds stumps with them. Them shears aren't cheap somebody told me like $25,000 just for the attachment. Equipment cost for grinding equipment is so expensive I'd like to see what kind of ROI you get from all of it.

 

[dirthog28]

Also Ironhorse, what are you classifying as a vertical tree extraction grab? Maybe I've seen, just called something different.

 

[John C.]

I had quite a few customers in the grinding business a few years ago and most used the Diamond Z tub grinders. Now days they are using other machines also and only a few were using horizontal machines. I don't know what the difference in cost is between the horizontals and the tub grinders but I think the products are different.

Most of the horizontals I've been around are whole tree chippers that produce chips suitable for pulp. I know there are some horizontal units that are grinders. The tub grinders produce hog fuel which many times is just spread out on the land for binder so trucks can get through muddy spots. There are some places that burn it for fuel. The other way to get rid of it is to mix it with other material to manufacture top soil.

Dirt and rocks are always to be avoided in grinders. Whole tree chippers have to produce a product of a specified dimension. Dulling the knives or chipping them really messes up the product. On the tub grinders it basically just slows down production and uses more fuel.

In our area we used hydraulic thumbs on excavators for feeding the grinders. Most of the chippers I've worked on had their own loader. I've seen operators beat the heck out of the stumps before feeding them in.

The cost of any grinder is astronomical just in the purchase price and gets even worse just keeping the thing running. Bits and grinder plates are extremely expensive. Most of the machines use engines of 600 horsepower and up. A couple of hundred gallons of fuel a day is not unheard of. Break one down for a belt or engine and you are in a hurt fast. Catching fire is not unheard of either.

At any rate there is a whole lot more to know when you get into the business and it is not for the faint of heart. With the bad housing market you can probably find a used machine pretty reasonable. Just remember, the self destruct switch is the same one worked by the key to start it.

 

[trainwreck]

i run a cbi grinder for a company here in oergon. i have ground alot of houses wiht it and the only thing i dont grind is the kitchen sink, bath tub,furnace and the foundation. this grinder is a beast it will take trees stumps dirt rock and all.
its big and heavy but in my opinion cbi makes the best grinder on the market.

 

[australian pete]

How do you get people to pay that amount of money for the grinder . I'm having trouble getting $150ph for the excavator and grab . I do'nt know how i would get another $500ph .

$500 per hr is nothing flash, grinders are expensive to buy and run, mine cost a bit over $600,000, they are now $800,000. running costs, fuel $100 plus per hr,the steel infeed belt and sprockets wear pads etc was $30,000, mine is half worn out at 500hrs,i ordered a new one 2 months ago, it has now arrived, because i ordered mine before the dollar crashed my cost is $30,000. vermeer guy told me same stuff is now $40,000. glad i ordered early.tips are up to $100 each depending what kind you run, hit small bits of steel and tips stuffed, hit big bits of steel and who knows what cost, i have heard of a grinder hitting a piece of railwal line, cost $30,000. if you grind stuff in tips you run a far bigger chance of hitting steel, i stick mostly to land clearing, subdivisions, commercial and industrial sites.

 

[australian pete]

So Pete, do you guys do the clearing also or just come in and grind. You mentioned that you have an excavator with shear go through and cut the stumps off, one guy I've seen before goes through with one excavator and clears and stacks it all, then second excavator goes through and grinds everthings up, but has a labor with chain saw to cut stumps, claims the mill he hauls chips to won't take it if he grinds stumps with them. Them shears aren't cheap somebody told me like $25,000 just for the attachment. Equipment cost for grinding equipment is so expensive I'd like to see what kind of ROI you get from all of it.

we sometimes grind piles of timber, greenwaste, pallets etc although we usually do the clearing and grinding,we push over the trees with an excavator and stack them in windrows, we then shear them with a hydraulic shear on the excavator, shear does an excellent job, (shear cost $35.000 aus dollars)we dont seperate the stumps, just shear them and grind with the rest of the tree,it all mixes up and looks the same, most times we leave the mulch on site and they lose it around the job, there is an over supply of mulch so you cant sell it, sometimes people will pick it up for free, if the client wants us to move it we charge to take it away, i take it to a soil yard however he does not pay for it. as for the ROI at present it is not great, not much work and lots of low prices, we are working cheap now, looking forward to the good times, dont know when that will be with the current financial turmoil, the world is crazy..

 

[australian pete]

I had quite a few customers in the grinding business a few years ago and most used the Diamond Z tub grinders. Now days they are using other machines also and only a few were using horizontal machines. I don't know what the difference in cost is between the horizontals and the tub grinders but I think the products are different.

Most of the horizontals I've been around are whole tree chippers that produce chips suitable for pulp. I know there are some horizontal units that are grinders. The tub grinders produce hog fuel which many times is just spread out on the land for binder so trucks can get through muddy spots. There are some places that burn it for fuel. The other way to get rid of it is to mix it with other material to manufacture top soil.

Dirt and rocks are always to be avoided in grinders. Whole tree chippers have to produce a product of a specified dimension. Dulling the knives or chipping them really messes up the product. On the tub grinders it basically just slows down production and uses more fuel.

In our area we used hydraulic thumbs on excavators for feeding the grinders. Most of the chippers I've worked on had their own loader. I've seen operators beat the heck out of the stumps before feeding them in.

The cost of any grinder is astronomical just in the purchase price and gets even worse just keeping the thing running. Bits and grinder plates are extremely expensive. Most of the machines use engines of 600 horsepower and up. A couple of hundred gallons of fuel a day is not unheard of. Break one down for a belt or engine and you are in a hurt fast. Catching fire is not unheard of either.

At any rate there is a whole lot more to know when you get into the business and it is not for the faint of heart. With the bad housing market you can probably find a used machine pretty reasonable. Just remember, the self destruct switch is the same one worked by the key to start it.

i like your description of the self destruct switch, very true, every time i hear the sound of steel running around the mill i start shaking, although it can be a difficult business at times it can also be rewarding and it is very satisfying at the end of a good day to see the big piles of mulch on the ground.

 

[australian pete]

i run a cbi grinder for a company here in oergon. i have ground alot of houses wiht it and the only thing i dont grind is the kitchen sink, bath tub,furnace and the foundation. this grinder is a beast it will take trees stumps dirt rock and all.
its big and heavy but in my opinion cbi makes the best grinder on the market.

i dont think there are any cbi grinders in australia, what horsepower are you running?

 

[australian pete]

How do you get people to pay that amount of money for the grinder . I'm having trouble getting $150ph for the excavator and grab . I do'nt know how i would get another $500ph .

this was the first job when new,

 

[australian pete]

How do you get people to pay that amount of money for the grinder . I'm having trouble getting $150ph for the excavator and grab . I do'nt know how i would get another $500ph .

grinding waste timber with plenty of dirt at canberra.

 

[trainwreck]

our grinder is 1050hp from the factory but it is turned up a bit so its about 1300-1500 hp now.

we also have a peterson pacific 4700b,it sits in a yard and never leaves they grind about 6 hours a day with it. they then spend the other 4 hours a day working on it.


here is the link to the brochure on our grinder they now call it the 8400
http://www.cbi-inc.com/library/pdfs/CBI_Magnum_Force_8400P_Brochure.pdf

 

[Iron Horse]

Also Ironhorse, what are you classifying as a vertical tree extraction grab? Maybe I've seen, just called something different.

This is the Vertical Tree Extraction Grab i use . I usually get more dirt off the rootball than this but i took the photo before i did . I would like a shredder that would follow me around so i could feed the trees in at the point of removal .

 

[Iron Horse]

$500 per hr is nothing flash, grinders are expensive to buy and run, mine cost a bit over $600,000, they are now $800,000. running costs, fuel $100 plus per hr,the steel infeed belt and sprockets wear pads etc was $30,000, mine is half worn out at 500hrs,i ordered a new one 2 months ago, it has now arrived, because i ordered mine before the dollar crashed my cost is $30,000. vermeer guy told me same stuff is now $40,000. glad i ordered early.tips are up to $100 each depending what kind you run, hit small bits of steel and tips stuffed, hit big bits of steel and who knows what cost, i have heard of a grinder hitting a piece of railwal line, cost $30,000. if you grind stuff in tips you run a far bigger chance of hitting steel, i stick mostly to land clearing, subdivisions, commercial and industrial sites.

Pete , i hope you did'nt think i was asking you too justify your charges , i was'nt . I know how much thing's cost , but trying to explain that too the public is a thing i'm having trouble with . Take for instance my flail mower and 100hp tractor . It cost $132,000 and i charge $100ph , it cuts 8' wide and marches through at a quick pace and because it has a grapple , i pick up everything and place in a pile . My opposition has a $1500 45hp tractor with a 5' slasher , mows around everything , takes 3 times as long and leaves the place looking like crap . But he gets heaps of work because he charges $60ph . The public only hear the $ph and can't be convinced . By the way , lovely gear you have .