How hard to run the equipment

[1toomanyhobbies]

I do small jobs with my equipment part time. I usually put taking care of my equipment high on the priority list while still working efficiently to complete a job. I recently got an opportunity to sub contract on a large project that brought in around 35 hours of work which for me is great considering the economy and the normal length of my jobs. I have a mini and a T190. They brought in another operator that is a very good operator but is used to running things always wide open and while not being outright abusive to equipment, he is much more aggressive and puts a noticeable amount more wear on the equipment. I understand people who subcontract out work want to get things done as quickly as possible and people who operate equipment day in and day out are used to getting things done. What I am trying to evaluate is am I babying my equipment too much and I am seeing what is the real work pace for people who do this full time or am I seeing someone who doesn't care as much because its not his equipment and he is just trying to get in good with the people who hired him. I know without video it is hard to tell just from the description above but my question is how hard do you work your equipment?

 

[maddog]

There has to be a balance between work being done and down time because of abuse(over running equipment)or running to hard. I personally never feel wide open all day is a solution unless of coarse you can afford to throw machines away like toilet paper. Not to mention the amount of fuel being run at WOT compared to 3/4. I quess it depends on priorities, IMO the better idea would be to finish a job and be ready for the next, instead of work awhile then fix equipment.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

I push my equipment hard, and expect it to produce. I do not like to see it abused, but sometimes that happens too, though it shouldn't. I do expect it to be used hard to get the job done if it is required.
To me, how hard it is worked is related to the task being done. Sometimes it is something like finish work, and is done at a slow easy pace. Do it right one time instead of doing it fast several times. On large projects (that is a term that is different for everyone depending on their situation) I expect things to be run with care, but flat out. That seems contradictory to some, but if you are skilled at what you do, you can run hard and still be smooth with the machine. Yes, you will wear it out faster that way than taking it easy, at least in terms of hours worked. You will get more work done though, and for a business, that is the goal.

For an owner-operator, or part timer, it is a different story. Work it to the pace you are comfortable with. That applies to all, come to think of it, because if you are operating over your experience level, you will have issues. To be competitive in the subcontract market, you must perform good work at a pace that makes the general contractor money. He will be counting on you to perform, and if you don't perform up to his expectations, someone else will, and you will be sitting at home with a well cared for machine and no work for it. That does not mean you should ever abuse your machine, especially for someone elses job, but you have to perform to be asked back.

In my case, I have had operators who were not top notch on a project where my machine was hired at hourly rate. The customer would call and it usually goes something like this: "If you can't get me a better operator who can move a little faster, take your machine home and I will get someone else"
I have had that happen many times, and sometimes with guys that most customers love, but he may not do what is expected by that particular client.

Well, I rambled on enough. I will let some other voice opinion now.

 

[coorecat]

From a owner and operators standpoint I couldn't have said it better JDOFMEMI.

 

[1toomanyhobbies]

Yes, you will wear it out faster that way than taking it easy, at least in terms of hours worked. You will get more work done though, and for a business, that is the goal.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. When you say getting more done is the goal, I am guessing this is if you bid the project instead of working hourly? I don't mean you should sandbag when doing hourly work but if you do work in a way that noticably increases machine wear at the same hourly rate, aren't you hurting yourself?

Work it to the pace you are comfortable with. That applies to all, come to think of it, because if you are operating over your experience level, you will have issues.

I think this is a good point. Originally i tried WOT when shuttling dirt which lead to a REALLY back jolting day in a T190 that beat me and the machine. Then what I noticed is the 80% of the time he and I moved at the same pace at my normal speed. What really set him apart is 20% of the time he did things in specific situations, because of his experience, that really saved time. I have to be honest, I was green with envy when watching someone do something that saved time and I didn't think about or couldn't do as well but then I had to say hey, this is a great opportunity to learn. Its just that he is used to a wheeled machine so he spins in place a lot when turning, does things that wear out the bushing faster etc that kinda make me cringe but the project is almost over and I have decided to just watch and learn, be a team player and not nit pick the guy.

Overall the general contractor has been happy with the work and I am hoping it will lead to some future projects over the next year. This project has been very time sensitive so that is the reason for two operators. I am hoping in the future the projects won't require two operators working at the same time and therefore I can only one working the equipment.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. When you say getting more done is the goal, I am guessing this is if you bid the project instead of working hourly? I don't mean you should sandbag when doing hourly work but if you do work in a way that noticably increases machine wear at the same hourly rate, aren't you hurting yourself?

.

I am not referring to doing it to increase wear, but production is a key to getting invited back when on hourly work. If you are noticably slow, you won't be called on much. Learn the tricks as you watch others, and learn to be productive without hurting the machinery. I am not advocating doing damage, and I will refuse work if asked to do things in a way that tears up my gear. I will push my machine to its peak performance, and doing so keeps me invited back. Also understand that normal wear and tear goes with the territory.

 

[Jeepwalker]

I'd say you got a chance to learn some new things and get paid while doing it. Usually it works the other way around.

 

[1toomanyhobbies]

I'd say you got a chance to learn some new things and get paid while doing it. Usually it works the other way around.

You know that exact phrase went through my mind yesterday. I have had plenty of times where I learned through the school of hard knocks. I heard a phrase last year that I really liked "Tuition is expensive"

 

[ARMYGUY]

hey guys we have an 1840 at the garage that has no power on the rite side. Hose was changed and seals in drive motor on the rite. There is no power to move the side. Drive motor swapped and still same issue. Can anyone assist me in getting the machine going and a workshop manual to do the repair?

Thanks.
ARMYGUY

 

[k45]

I am hoping in the future the projects won't require two operators working at the same time and therefore I can only one working the equipment.

OTOH, having another operator there gives you a chance to learn by example.

Ken

 

[JD8875]

In the same boat

I'm in the same boat you are 1toomanyhobbies. I'm a part time owner/operator trying to get this business off the ground in horrible economic times so you have to make smart decisions to get the most out of the equipment for your dollar. I'll push my machines and myself to the max of our abilities, but I refuse to abuse my equipment for anybody's job. I've noticed a lot of for hire operators don't think about what it costs to replace a pin, bushing, tire, or whatever. Its not their job, they get paid to operate... It does concern me because it comes out of my pocket everytime I walk out of John Deere, the tire shop whatever! The best thing i've done to gain efficiency is to try to think ahead in the project, not just for me, but ahead of other contractors involved.

Good Luck and be safe
John

 

[Monte1255]

makes a difference whose pocket the money comes out of for repairs that's for sure!

 

[KSSS]

There are a lot of little tricks you learn that are specific to CTL/SSL that save time and save wear and tear. When I have a new operator, the mantra I pound into their heads is "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." I have seen some ridiculous operating habits, mostly because no one ever taught them any different. Sometimes I am not as patient as I should be with less experienced operators, and if they cant catch on quick I let them go, but you have to instill good operating habits or they will kill you with poor productivity and high operating costs. I have also had issues with sending operators out to certain customers,some of these guys I started doing work for almost 20 years ago, so naturally if you not the one in the seat its not getting done quickly enough or good enough. I try and do those myself or at least be on the job if possible. The machines themselves play a huge part in how hard you can push a machine. I push my machines real hard at times, another reason I pay close attention to the machines specs when I buy them new. I want machines that have additional capacity to be pushed hard.

Somethings that I find make a big difference from a machine standpoint.
Ride Control: Its a great feature, allows faster ground speads and doesnt beat up the operator as much. Worth every penny.

Two Speed: Goes without saying really. If your in this business to make money, you have to move a fast as practical and safe
.
Bigger is almost always better in my view: Meaning if two machines are the same size like a 216 and 226 CAT or 430 and 440 CASE. I opt for the machine with more capacity, they cost more, may use a little more fuel, but when you need to get work done the added capacity can be the difference between making money and not making money.

I operate at higher alt. So turbo chargers are a necessity.

I try to always get high flow optioned machines to maximize my options with my attachments.

Cab machines make for a more comfortable operator especially early and later in the year. That makes him more productive.

Match the bucket or attachment to the job, often overlooked, but very important. Just because your machine came with a 66" bucket does not mean your machine cant run a 73". Sometimes in harder digging conditions it goes the other way, a smaller bucket is more efficient. Having the right attachment for the job brings in more jobs and makes you more money those jobs.

Excellent breakout forces on my machines are a big feature for me. Especially when running the larger buckets.

Operating habits.
I never let someone counter rotate 180 degrees unless there is no room to conduct a two point turn. You can do the two point turn just fractionally slower than counter rotating wthout near the wear.

If you need to counter rotate throw some loose dirt down where you plan to counter rotate if your on a hard surface.

Always take a full bucket, sounds silly but I see it alot. guys running with a half full bucket. Customers hate to see that, with ride control it is silly not to run with a full bucket and have it still full when you get to your location.

Many operators dont like to go backwards. They insist on counter rotating or turning around so they can go forward for a short distance, dump/dig then again turn around. Many times you can eliminate one of these turns by going backward to the point you need to turn around to dump or dig. You save time and wear by cutting out one of those turns, if safety is an issue than this may not be possible but you get the idea. There are a finite amount of turns and spins in a set of tires and tracks, use them wisely.

When digging into a pile use the machines breakout force to fill the bucket along with the lift curcuit. Dont spin your way to fill the bucket, again sounds simple but many will burn your tires or tracks everytime to fill a bucket.

Take the time to keep your work area smooth and rock free. Allows faster ground speeds when traveling and is more safe. I had an operator run over a rock on his haul road, it shot the rock out from under his tire and into a custom Pella window on an 8 mill home. I got to pay for the window and reinstall.

Use the foot throttle when it make sense to do so. Running WOT when not needed is a waste of fuel.

Also always be thinking ahead of where you are. If you make this a habit you will elliminate a lot of excess movement.

There are many others, but the moral of the story is to WORK SMART. Always analyze your operating habits for ways to increase efficiency and ways to reduce the abuse your machine has to endure. Sometimes you have to go balls out to get things done and the effects on the machine are of no consequence, that should always be the exception and not the rule.

 

[DGODGR]

I push my equipment hard, and expect it to produce. I do not like to see it abused, but sometimes that happens too, though it shouldn't. I do expect it to be used hard to get the job done if it is required.
To me, how hard it is worked is related to the task being done. Sometimes it is something like finish work, and is done at a slow easy pace. Do it right one time instead of doing it fast several times. On large projects (that is a term that is different for everyone depending on their situation) I expect things to be run with care, but flat out. That seems contradictory to some, but if you are skilled at what you do, you can run hard and still be smooth with the machine. Yes, you will wear it out faster that way than taking it easy, at least in terms of hours worked. You will get more work done though, and for a business, that is the goal.

For an owner-operator, or part timer, it is a different story. Work it to the pace you are comfortable with. That applies to all, come to think of it, because if you are operating over your experience level, you will have issues. To be competitive in the subcontract market, you must perform good work at a pace that makes the general contractor money. He will be counting on you to perform, and if you don't perform up to his expectations, someone else will, and you will be sitting at home with a well cared for machine and no work for it. That does not mean you should ever abuse your machine, especially for someone elses job, but you have to perform to be asked back.

In my case, I have had operators who were not top notch on a project where my machine was hired at hourly rate. The customer would call and it usually goes something like this: "If you can't get me a better operator who can move a little faster, take your machine home and I will get someone else"
I have had that happen many times, and sometimes with guys that most customers love, but he may not do what is expected by that particular client.

Well, I rambled on enough. I will let some other voice opinion now.

Well said Jerry. I did backhoe rental in CA when I first started out. I ran my machine to it's potential, like Jerry said in his 1st paragraph, but did not abuse it. I built my business on being very accurate, and efficient, w/o breaking anything. Productivity is the name of the game. With experience one learns what the difference between max productivity and abuse is. The fastest way to get things done is the most efficient way. I have pushed all of my machines that way. Even though I work it hard my oldest machine (Cat backhoe) has over 12,000 hours on it and I run it the same way I always have since it was new.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

KSSS

You put it really well. All of your points should be on a must read list for new operators.

Especially "Slow is Smooth and Smooth is Fast"

I tell people learn to be smooth and the speed will be there.

DGODGR

Thanks for the compliments. Sounds like we do things much the same.

 

[1toomanyhobbies]

There are a lot of little tricks you learn that are specific to CTL/SSL that save time and save wear and tear. When I have a new operator, the mantra I pound into their heads is "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." I have seen some ridiculous operating habits, mostly because no one ever taught them any different. Sometimes I am not as patient as I should be with less experienced operators, and if they cant catch on quick I let them go, but you have to instill good operating habits or they will kill you with poor productivity and high operating costs. I have also had issues with sending operators out to certain customers,some of these guys I started doing work for almost 20 years ago, so naturally if you not the one in the seat its not getting done quickly enough or good enough. I try and do those myself or at least be on the job if possible. The machines themselves play a huge part in how hard you can push a machine. I push my machines real hard at times, another reason I pay close attention to the machines specs when I buy them new. I want machines that have additional capacity to be pushed hard.

Somethings that I find make a big difference from a machine standpoint.
Ride Control: Its a great feature, allows faster ground speads and doesnt beat up the operator as much. Worth every penny.

Two Speed: Goes without saying really. If your in this business to make money, you have to move a fast as practical and safe
.
Bigger is almost always better in my view: Meaning if two machines are the same size like a 216 and 226 CAT or 430 and 440 CASE. I opt for the machine with more capacity, they cost more, may use a little more fuel, but when you need to get work done the added capacity can be the difference between making money and not making money.

I operate at higher alt. So turbo chargers are a necessity.

I try to always get high flow optioned machines to maximize my options with my attachments.

Cab machines make for a more comfortable operator especially early and later in the year. That makes him more productive.

Match the bucket or attachment to the job, often overlooked, but very important. Just because your machine came with a 66" bucket does not mean your machine cant run a 73". Sometimes in harder digging conditions it goes the other way, a smaller bucket is more efficient. Having the right attachment for the job brings in more jobs and makes you more money those jobs.

Excellent breakout forces on my machines are a big feature for me. Especially when running the larger buckets.

Operating habits.
I never let someone counter rotate 180 degrees unless there is no room to conduct a two point turn. You can do the two point turn just fractionally slower than counter rotating wthout near the wear.

If you need to counter rotate throw some loose dirt down where you plan to counter rotate if your on a hard surface.

Always take a full bucket, sounds silly but I see it alot. guys running with a half full bucket. Customers hate to see that, with ride control it is silly not to run with a full bucket and have it still full when you get to your location.

Many operators dont like to go backwards. They insist on counter rotating or turning around so they can go forward for a short distance, dump/dig then again turn around. Many times you can eliminate one of these turns by going backward to the point you need to turn around to dump or dig. You save time and wear by cutting out one of those turns, if safety is an issue than this may not be possible but you get the idea. There are a finite amount of turns and spins in a set of tires and tracks, use them wisely.

When digging into a pile use the machines breakout force to fill the bucket along with the lift curcuit. Dont spin your way to fill the bucket, again sounds simple but many will burn your tires or tracks everytime to fill a bucket.

Take the time to keep your work area smooth and rock free. Allows faster ground speeds when traveling and is more safe. I had an operator run over a rock on his haul road, it shot the rock out from under his tire and into a custom Pella window on an 8 mill home. I got to pay for the window and reinstall.

Use the foot throttle when it make sense to do so. Running WOT when not needed is a waste of fuel.

Also always be thinking ahead of where you are. If you make this a habit you will elliminate a lot of excess movement.

There are many others, but the moral of the story is to WORK SMART. Always analyze your operating habits for ways to increase efficiency and ways to reduce the abuse your machine has to endure. Sometimes you have to go balls out to get things done and the effects on the machine are of no consequence, that should always be the exception and not the rule.

**Admins I'd vote for KSS's post to be stickied**

This is great Info KSS. I like your approach of focusing on being smooth and planning ahead. I always try to avoid 180's by doing 3 point turns and during that job did begin just backing up where so I could avoid the stress on the tracks. I did try to focus on full buckets but I'm not sure what you meant by using the break out force of the bucket vs spinning the tracks. I know you can curl the bucket while pushing in to help avoid spinning but I still end up spinning some which I know isn't good.

I think one issue for me is I'm still learning what is in my machines "normal" use range and what is in considered hard use. Because I do this part time a lot of my jobs are smaller I prioritize minimizing wear and tear. As I develop connections and begin to do larger sub work I am having to change to prioritizing productivity while still keeping within reasonable wear and tear range.

 

[DGODGR]

**Admins I'd vote for KSS's post to be stickied**

This is great Info KSS. I like your approach of focusing on being smooth and planning ahead. I always try to avoid 180's by doing 3 point turns and during that job did begin just backing up where so I could avoid the stress on the tracks. I did try to focus on full buckets but I'm not sure what you meant by using the break out force of the bucket vs spinning the tracks. I know you can curl the bucket while pushing in to help avoid spinning but I still end up spinning some which I know isn't good.

I think one issue for me is I'm still learning what is in my machines "normal" use range and what is in considered hard use. Because I do this part time a lot of my jobs are smaller I prioritize minimizing wear and tear. As I develop connections and begin to do larger sub work I am having to change to prioritizing productivity while still keeping within reasonable wear and tear range.

Your skid steer, or tracked skid steer in this case, can only get so much traction, and thus will only load the bucket so much, regardless of how much you push the lever forward. A good practice is to slow your aproach to the pile. Put the bucket on the ground, in the "dig" or "fill" position. Many will push the loader arms all the way to the bottom but in many situations that will only serve to lift the front of the machine, reducing the traction surface, and put higher wear on the bottom of the bucket (kind of like "healing" an excavator bucket). Both of which will reduce the amount of material you will get in the bucket. Experience will help you find the "sweat spot". On most skids, that I have run (I have not run them all so there is liable to be some that differ), the loader arms should be an inch, or two, above fully bottomed with the bucket parallel to the ground. Drive into the pile applying only enough lever pressure to move into the pile until the machine stops. Maintain constant lever pressure but be sure you are not spinning the tracks, or tires. Take the time to find the point that gives you maximum forward pressure without wheel spin. While maintaining forward pressure, but still not spinning, begin simultaneously curling the bucket and lifting the loader arms. You will have to experiment with timing and sequence (which one is first and/or has more priority) per machine and conditions. I find that I usually lead with the bucket curl and then begin to lift. Try this out slowly and controlably. Like weight lifting, emphasize proper technique. Once you begin curling the bucket you will notice the machine will move forward and continue filling the bucket. The movement of the bucket/loader arms will control forward motion (remember, you still have steady lever pressure). Speed will come quickly but, even if it takes a bit longer per cycle, you will make up for it by having more in the bucket per cycle (efficiency trumps speed). Soon you will have speed and efficiency. With todays machines you will find it easy to over fill the bucket when using the correct technique. IME this technique applies to any front end loader be it tracked or rubber tired.

 

[KRob]

DGODGER, thanks that was very interesting, ive only operated a skid steer a few times so that was very informative.

THanks