Injector Seat Not Sealing

[lonelyowl7]

Hey I have a cat 267b that needed head work, so I had to remove the injectors. They ended up being supper stuck and had to bang 2 out from the underside of the head.

Fast forward, head is all redone, back on the engine, with new injectors, went to turn it over and I hear a large compression leak when turning over, and its coming from one of the injectors. I put anti-seize on them and I could see it blow some of the anti-seize out.

I took the injector out and noticed the seat is damaged in some way, almost like the old injector took a small piece with it.

Its kinda hard to get a picture of it but you can get the idea from that.



I thought it was just a little bit of dirty water or something when I originally saw it, so I tried to clean it but its definitely a missing material.

I found an injector seat cutter/clean kit online and was wondering if anyone has used one and if they have any advice, especially how to keep metal pieces out of the cylinder. I'm probably going to order this one.



Thanks for any help!!

 

[Coaldust]

That’s ugly. Ouch!
Was that one with a stuck nozzle in it?

 

[lonelyowl7]

That’s ugly. Ouch!
Was that one with a stuck nozzle in it?

They were all stuck haha, but yea that one had to be hammered from the underside of the head.

2 of them I used a slide hammer on, and came out relatively easily.

 

[thepumpguysc]

By the looks of the injectors, the nozzle gasket is tapered..
like a “V”..??
Not to pour salt in your wound.. but why didn’t the head shop catch it.?? AND repair it.!!

It looks by the pic that your gonna hafta take A LOT of metal away to make it flat..??
And it’s probably gonna change the injection timing on that cylinder.. you might notice it or you may not..
Please make sure the gasket is FLAT and not V’d..
IDK whatcha gonna do if it’s V’d..??
Good luck

 

[lonelyowl7]

By the looks of the injectors, the nozzle gasket is tapered..
like a “V”..??
Not to pour salt in your wound.. but why didn’t the head shop catch it.?? AND repair it.!!

It looks by the pic that your gonna hafta take A LOT of metal away to make it flat..??
And it’s probably gonna change the injection timing on that cylinder.. you might notice it or you may not..
Please make sure the gasket is FLAT and not V’d..
IDK whatcha gonna do if it’s V’d..??
Good luck

The gaskets are definitely flat, just a standard copper crush washer, but it does look like a good amount of material.

Why would that change injection timing?

 

[Nige]

By the looks of the injectors, the nozzle gasket is tapered.. like a “V”..??

Don't think so. See below. Also the drawing of the gasket #11 shows it as flat.
To the OP. Are you sure the old gaskets were completely removed.?

 

[lonelyowl7]

Don't think so. See below. Also the drawing of the gasket #11 shows it as flat.
To the OP. Are you sure the old gaskets were completely removed.?

View attachment 306990

Yes I have all the pieces that came out

 

[Nige]

Yes I have all the piece that came out

You're saying each of the 4 old gaskets came out in one piece.? Stuck to the injector or stuck in the head and had to be removed separately, makes no difference. Just need confirmation that easch one came out in 1pc.

If you confirm that is the case then IMHO you're going to need a specialist cylinder head shop to sort it, and worst case scenario the head is toast.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Removing the metal where the injector sits, will lower the tip into the cylinder..
The piston will be closer to the injector when it fires.

 

[lonelyowl7]

You're saying each of the 4 old gaskets came out in one piece.? Stuck to the injector or stuck in the head and had to be removed separately, makes no difference. Just need confirmation that easch one came out in 1pc.

If you confirm that is the case then IMHO you're going to need a specialist cylinder head shop to sort it, and worst case scenario the head is toast.

3 Came out in one piece like the one picture. The one looks like it was hammered on, but looks all there, just crunched up.

I'm pretty sure it is material missing from the seat, rather than excess material from an old gasket. I did look at the crush washer on the new injector and didn't see any marks as if there was excess material pushing up on it.

Why would I need a special machine shop to fix that, if I can just use that tool?

 

[Nige]

Why would I need a special machine shop to fix that, if I can just use that tool?

See the reply from @thepumpguysc above. By cutting out material from the seat the injector tip will sit closer to the piston crown when the fuel is injected. That could potentially increase the piston crown temp to a point at which the crown melts. IMHO seek specialist advice before proceeding further.

 

[lonelyowl7]

See the reply from @thepumpguysc above. By cutting out material from the seat the injector tip will sit closer to the piston crown when the fuel is injected. That could potentially increase the piston crown temp to a point at which the crown melts. IMHO seek specialist advice before proceeding further.

would machining the head surface not do the same thing?

 

[Nige]

Normally a head skim is .005" or less. That hickey in the injector bore appears to be a lot more than that. Again IMO, specialist advice is going to be required.

 

[Coaldust]

It would be worth checking if there are any TIB’s, PIP’s or regarding cyl head problems with that particular machine.

If you carefully measured how much material you removed and made a custom gasket to match, maybe you could make it work. ?

Like Pumpguy says, your injection timing will drastically be advanced, and next thread will be about the mysteriously bent cylinder rod.

I recommend a new head. It’s disappointing, but not surprising, the machine shop missed that.

 

[Arny L]

I don't know if its possible, but if you end up having to remove the head again, would it be feasible to use the cutter and then double up on gasket, or make one, out of thicker material. As a last resort. Just saw Coaldusts post.

 

[lonelyowl7]

I don't know if its possible, but if you end up having to remove the head again, would it be feasible to use the cutter and then double up on gasket, or make one, out of thicker material. As a last resort. Just saw Coaldusts post.

That's what I'm thinking.

I've found, on other forums, Mercedes sprinter vans, with diesel engines, have the same injector style, and they seem to have a problem with the seat getting grooves in it, and they talk about cutting and getting a thicker gasket/washer. I'm looking into it now.

When I look up the Cat part for the injector gasket, it says it's 1mm thick. So if I can measure the depth before cutting, cut the minimum amount to make it flat, and measure again for the difference, maybe I can find a copper crush washer that thickness.

 

[Arny L]

Well keep in mind, what others have said, if you end up advancing timing in the process, and damage engine, you will be having a worse day. I would at least do as Nige suggests and get a specialist opinion.

 

[lonelyowl7]

Well keep in mind, what others have said, if you end up advancing timing in the process, and damage engine, you will be having a worse day. I would at least do as Nige suggests and get a specialist opinion.

Would a Cat dealer be the place to go?

 

[Nige]

Would a Cat dealer be the place to go?

No. You need a machine shop that a) specialises in diesels and b) has extensive cylinder head machining capability.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Cat will tell u, U HAVE TO replace the head..(usually without looking at it)
If u have the tooling, there’s no reason u couldn’t measure a good bore as reference..
THEN cut your seat and measure it..
I would stay within a “double” gasket measurement tho..
Good luck