Is anyone having any problems with the new Cat 285/275 CTLs?

[Tones]

In other words "not fit for purpose"comes to mind.
I freely admit to having rose coloured glasses when buying and got bitten badly on one occasion. Now I would insist on doing my own PD in the dealership yard even it meant employing a 3rd party to help. Faults like this can be eliminated immediately by saying no deal and walking away then using SM to expose your findings. Enough people doing this will make the manufacturers lift their game.

 

[Tags]

Imagine trying to put anything on grade with that. Not saying it can’t be done, but you should just be able to go out and run it, not worry about having to figure out how to adjust to it. Imagine if you bought a brand new car that pulled “just a little to the left” don’t think anybody would accept that. I would send that thing back and get my money back. I’m not saying cat doesn’t make good equipment, but their arrogance is truly annoying.

 

[KSSS]

I appreciate all the input.
Obviously we're not happy about it.

Our dealer is telling us that Cat says the machine is within spec and won't do anything about it. They say the line boring work has been done out of their own pocket as a goodwill gesture.

I'll try again to post some photos.

This comment, if it is truly what CAT said, is nothing but extreme arrogance. They (in their opinion) made their new machine the way one would expect it should be from the beginning, bucket laying flat. (they did it a way few would say should be done on a new machine, but whatever). They did that out of their own pocket and out of goodwill. I would have needed some meds to calm down if that was the response I got from a company making a half asssed effort on a machine under warranty. It is said in a way that suggests that they could have done absolutely nothing on a machine that clearly wasn't manufactured correctly. I guess asking for the loader arms to be built so the bucket lays flat is nice when it happens, but if it doesn't, we may or may not fix it depending on how we feel about it, and if we do fix it, you should be happy with the goodwill we put toward our own manufacturing mistake 'cause we could have told you to "pack sand".

Plenty of places to spend money in the dirt world, I don't need to give money to further this type of business mentality.

 

[MG84]

This comment, if it is truly what CAT said, is nothing but extreme arrogance.

Plenty of places to spend money in the dirt world, I don't need to give money to further this type of business mentality.

Agreed. I would own some of the older/larger Cat equipment, however their compact equipment line (SS/CTL/Mini Ex) has always been very underwhelming. I've said it for a long time, but I don't think Cat cares nearly as much about their compact equipment as their large equipment and issues like this just prove the point.

This thread in and of itself is already becoming bad publicity for Cat. It shouldn't be hard to really put some leverage on them, you might have to go above your dealers head to get it done however.

 

[KSSS]

This guy said he had mostly Orange CTL's, one CAT and Bobcat. Doesn't say if they have anything else CAT. I am curious if the new loader arms are for the large CAT operations. You hear that the big CAT buyers get treated a lot better than the smaller guy does. I obviously don't know first hand, only something you hear. Someone is getting new loader arms on a new CAT 275/285. What did it take for that to happen? If I was the poster, I would want to know that. Could be an unrelated reason or it could be you have to spend a lot more money with them to get new loader arms as opposed to getting your new machine line bored and extra shims added. At this point, I think that is a reasonable question to ask.

 

[AMBMike]

This comment, if it is truly what CAT said, is nothing but extreme arrogance. They (in their opinion) made their new machine the way one would expect it should be from the beginning, bucket laying flat. (they did it a way few would say should be done on a new machine, but whatever). They did that out of their own pocket and out of goodwill. I would have needed some meds to calm down if that was the response I got from a company making a half asssed effort on a machine under warranty. It is said in a way that suggests that they could have done absolutely nothing on a machine that clearly wasn't manufactured correctly. I guess asking for the loader arms to be built so the bucket lays flat is nice when it happens, but if it doesn't, we may or may not fix it depending on how we feel about it, and if we do fix it, you should be happy with the goodwill we put toward our own manufacturing mistake 'cause we could have told you to "pack sand".

Plenty of places to spend money in the dirt world, I don't need to give money to further this type of business mentality.

I wasn't clear in the statement you quoted. Our dealer says Cat has done nothing for us and supposedly no longer wants to discuss this with the dealer. According to the dealer the line boring was done by the dealer at the dealers expense.

This guy said he had mostly Orange CTL's, one CAT and Bobcat. Doesn't say if they have anything else CAT. I am curious if the new loader arms are for the large CAT operations. You hear that the big CAT buyers get treated a lot better than the smaller guy does. I obviously don't know first hand, only something you hear. Someone is getting new loader arms on a new CAT 275/285. What did it take for that to happen? If I was the poster, I would want to know that. Could be an unrelated reason or it could be you have to spend a lot more money with them to get new loader arms as opposed to getting your new machine line bored and extra shims added. At this point, I think that is a reasonable question to ask.

We have a small fleet of Cat equipment including a D6N, 329, 314, 308, and 305 in addition to the 2 Cat skid steers. We also have several non Cat machines which will likely be replaced in the next year or so. Not a large fleet by any means although our civil and utility division is expanding rapidly. Our Cat dealer is aware of this and wanting to sell more equipment. We also rent from them on a regular basis.

We are a small commercial general contractor doing our own site prep, utility, and concrete work in addition to the buildings.

The Kubota and Bobcat machines go to our concrete crews.

We were told they would have a new set of arms waiting on our machine when it went in.
I asked the salesman why it wasn't installed on our machine instead of redoing the line boring. He either couldn't or wouldn't give me an answer.

The salesman also said we're the only buyer complaining about this and until Cat receives a lot of complaints they will be unlikely to do anything...
That is almost word for word what a Liebherr salesman told me 20 years ago when the track loaders we were running had problems with final drives. Somehow, in spite of "never receiving any other complaints" Liebherr changed the final drives on their new machines a couple years later. By that time we were running Cat track loaders again...

 

[KSSS]

Well you sound like a company CAT would or should be trying to keep happy. Guess since they will no longer discuss it, you have gotten all they are willing to give. How are you guys going to handle this moving forward?

 

[AMBMike]

Well you sound like a company CAT would or should be trying to keep happy. Guess since they will no longer discuss it, you have gotten all they are willing to give. How are you guys going to handle this moving forward?

How we handle it will be up to our operations guy and the owner. I don't know what they're thinking.

I did mention the extra wear the bucket cylinder pins and bushings will likely have due to the line boring changing the geometry. The dealer says they'll help us with that in the future.

 

[MG84]

I realize you are more or less just the messenger caught in the middle of this, but I'm surprised by how lackadaisical everyone in your company seems to be about this.

What you have now is a big mess. The line boring should have never been done, everyone agrees that is a band aid solution at best. Now it's muddied the waters about whether it's really fixed or not, who's liable if it isn't and also gives Cat an out.

I'm not sure what your options are now, but it's clear you are going to have to work your way up the food chain if you want to get anything done. I'd bet there are members of this forum who have contacts at Cat that can actually get something done. Those are the people you need to talk to, make them aware of the entire problem, how it's played out from the beginning, and make them aware of this thread as well. How Cat corporate handles this problem going forward could either be good PR or horrible publicity. AFAIK this is the largest equipment forum in the world and if this thread keeps going, LOTS of people will eventually read it. Then again, I'm beginning to believe Cat corporate is just that arrogant that they don't care....

 

[Tones]

MG,this has been going on for years. A large earthmoving contractor told me of their experience with a D9g and accelerated track wear, found that it had 2 different track frames and were incompatible. Cat wouldn't rectify that either. That contractor had a 100% Cat fleet and a cash buyer,sold the lot and went Euclid/ Terex. Cat never blinked.

 

[Welder Dave]

I think your salesman should be raising kane with the dealership manager/owner to get Cat to do the right thing and replace the loader arms. You should get consumer affairs in your state involved as well. It is clearly unacceptable! Your company has enough Cat machines they should want to keep you as a customer. It shouldn't matter if you only had one machine though. There used to be a couple local TV news shows that had a segment where a "troubleshooter" would put stories like this on the news. They still do stories about shady businesses and I'd guess that they got satisfaction (95%) in the majority of cases. Your story and your evidence would make for a good story to be shown to thousands of people who watch the news. I'd bet the dealership and Cat wouldn't want that kind of BAD publicity. Local newspapers could like the story as well.

 

[pumkinhead]

here is the spec may help in getting something done by the dealer

 

[pumkinhead]

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[pumkinhead]

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[AMBMike]

here is the spec may help in getting something done by the dealer

Thank you!

 

[MG84]

MG,this has been going on for years. A large earthmoving contractor told me of their experience with a D9g and accelerated track wear, found that it had 2 different track frames and were incompatible. Cat wouldn't rectify that either. That contractor had a 100% Cat fleet and a cash buyer,sold the lot and went Euclid/ Terex. Cat never blinked.

I'm sure it has been going on for years and probably with other companies as well. The difference now though is things can't just be 'swept under the rug' like they used to be 30yrs ago before the internet. In that situation they may have lost a big customer, or maybe a few if word got around, but nowadays this information is reaching thousands if not millions of people.

If you google "Cat 275 problems" this thread is the first that pops up. Not to mention, right or wrong, AI is now going to take this information and run with it. There are a lot of BIG companies that have learned the hard way about the power of the internet and social media over the past few years. In a capitalistic society the consumers still have the final vote.

 

[KSSS]

When you first measured the gap from the loader arms to the stop, did you lower the arms down as they mention in this diagram? By lowering the arms with the hyd release you remove the effort of the hyd cylinders. It looks like you were right at the max gap spec in your photo. I would not have thought to lower the arms with the hyd release valve. That difference may have shown the gap was out of spec. They show a half inch gap on the bucket to the ground would still be in spec. That seems crazy to me. CAT said the machine was in spec and they were not going to do anything....and from the info shown here, it very well may have been. Certainly, one can argue that the spec is not reasonable, but I guess the spec can be whatever they want it to be. It sure makes the QC position in that factory the easiest position next to filling the pop machine.

 

[AMBMike]

When you first measured the gap from the loader arms to the stop, did you lower the arms down as they mention in this diagram? By lowering the arms with the hyd release you remove the effort of the hyd cylinders. It looks like you were right at the max gap spec in your photo. I would not have thought to lower the arms with the hyd release valve. That difference may have shown the gap was out of spec. They show a half inch gap on the bucket to the ground would still be in spec. That seems crazy to me. CAT said the machine was in spec and they were not going to do anything....and from the info shown here, it very well may have been. Certainly, one can argue that the spec is not reasonable, but I guess the spec can be whatever they want it to be. It sure makes the QC position in that factory the easiest position next to filling the pop machine.

I lowered the arms normally. It never crossed my mind to use the hydraulic release. I can confirm it is almost impossible to lower it without putting any hydraulic down pressure on the arms.

I have to say I found it hard to believe they could consider it in spec but like you say they can make the spec anything they like.

 

[KSSS]

Yea it would not have crossed my mind either. It would be interesting to do as it is spelled out and see what you get even now with line boring. It might be your only option left.

Hard to believe, especially given modern manufacturing capabilities, that they give so much variance, especially on a machines that are tasked with fine grading. Half an inch bucket gap doesn't allow the machine to fine grade with the accuracy that is expected, especially in today's market.

 

[Welder Dave]

The bogus 1/2" spec. appears to me that Cat knows there's a problem and are trying to limit the number of loader arms they need to replace. Skid steers/CTL's are used for precision work. That's why they're so popular. You can see exactly what the bucket is doing. The spec. should be no more than 1/8". The loader arms should should be against the frame on both sides when lowered all the way in float position. If there's a a bunch of loaders with ****** up arms there should be a mandatory recall. If not then a class action suit should be filed. I'd bet cheap Chinese machines have more level buckets. Cat's jig or welding procedure for the arms is flawed. Perhaps they come out of the jig too soon or the welding isn't done equally on each side. If welding was confined to one side/area and then the other the heat input could certainly warp the arms, especially if done with welding robots. The arms should be checked for straightness after welding and straightened or rejected long before they ever go on the machine. Definitely not an isolated problem if another 4 new machines have the problem at the same dealer. Machines costing close to 100K should have pretty strict quality control.