JD 323D Overheating Cooling Fan

[franmech]

I have a JD 323D CTL that is overheating due to the cooling fan not functioning. At times it will function so I am thinking an electrical problem perhaps with a solenoid that operates the hydraulic cooling fan motor? Would anyone have an electrical and/or a hydraulic schematic of the cooling fan circuits? If I have to purchase a manual I will, thought I'd check here first. Any common failures with this sort of problem on these machines? Thanks!

 

[mg2361]

Serial number.

When the fan is not working shut down the machine, unplug the fan solenoid (preferred) or coolant temperature sensor and start the machine back up. Does the fan now turn at full speed?

The most common issue is debris in the fan valve. You might want to remove it and disassemble it to check for debris. Remove your hydraulic filter and cut it open to see what's inside as well.

Do you have codes other than overheat codes?

 

[cbritt927]

franmech or mg2361,

I have a 333e that also has a "slow" fan. I replaced the fan pump ($1200 wasted), replaced the themostat (wasted time), verified water pump is working (wasted time), removed radiator and pressure washed (yes it was dirty); and I am still overheating after about 15 minutes. Oh yeah, we also removed the "pump valve" on the aluminum block and it appeared fine. We removed the harnesses from these 3 silinoid looking things but not sure I see a difference. Don't think we turned off the motor though.....

Hydo oil stays cool, but coolant temp goes to red level and even pukes. It looks like my fan is on a sunday stroll. What became of your issue franmech?

Would love to chat in person if at all possible. We are dead in the water without this skid.

Thanks,
Clint

 

[mg2361]

Welcome to HEF cbritt927!

First, please post the entire machine serial number. Need that for accurate information gathering. There are several configurations to the fan circuit based on the S/N.

Did you unplug the fan solenoid or coolant temp sensor to see if the fan jumps to full speed?

 

[cbritt927]

mg2361: Thanks. Here is the serial: 1T333EMVEE26477

We unplugged all of the solenoids on the control valve down by the battery (see pic) but no real change in fan speed. Where is (or which one) is the fan solenoid? There are 3. My manual only shows 1 so we must have something "special' on this. Unplugged all 3 harnesses. We started the skid and the fan doesn't even turn. When we "help it" with our hands it starts turning, but slowly. When we speed up the throttle is speeds up too, but not as fast as I think it should be. We've had this skid for 4 years, and we've just never paid attention.

Again, we unplugged everything the below picture and restarted it and no noticable change. [Also, there is a solenoid that sits on that peg that is not in the picture. We removed it to clean it.]

We also removed the hydrostatic control valve to inspect. Was hoping to find debris, but it looks fine. Removed a few of the plus (allen plugs) hoping to find debris, all looks fine.

One note, we are not using hygard (or the other one). We were in a pinch and had to run aw-46 or 68 hydro oil. My operator can't remember the thickness but it was new hydro oil. I dont thnk that should matter, but with my luck, it might. I think the jd hydo's are aw-46.
We also changed the hydro filter when we installed the new fan pump. I didn't cut open the filter but did dump it to see the oil. It looked fine.

Is there something (like a valve etc) at or prior to the fan pump (which is brand new) that should be cleaned/inspected? There is a lot going on at the actual fan and I want to make sure its cleaned.

I am starting to think this is an issue with debris in the system or wrong oil...maybe too thick.... I can't imagine the a non JD oil causing it to fail.

Today I am going to clean the screen that is at the hydro 'tank'. I am desparate so I'm leaving my email that is linked to my phone. Anyone with knowledge or special manuals etc, please email me: clint@thebrittcompany.com

 

[cbritt927]

here is the serial: 1T333EMVEE264771

forgot the 1

 

[mg2361]

You also forgot a zero, but that is OK, you have enough numbers there. Your machine has the cold start package, so the oil should be the Plus 50 0W-40 full synthetic, or Hydrau (I'll have to double check this).

That fan should spin with the solenoid (shown below) disconnected at 2350-2600 rpm @ fast idle with the hydraulic oil @110*F. Has the entire solenoid valve block been completely disassembled and inspected?

Has the hydraulic filter been removed, cut open, and inspected (see attached video link)? This really needs to be done.
How to Inspect oil filter

Has the return manifold on the bottom in the machine (the left side looking in, almost under the hydrostats) been checked for debris?

 

[cbritt927]

Thank you for this!

Yes, I did disconnect the solenoid (in red) and there was not real difference in speed.

My deere dealer has finally helped me and says I should remove the valve in the (red circle), inspect for damage, and replace the coil that is on the valve. ($145) I'm headed out to the shop to take apart that solenoid. Do you agree?

As far as the 'valve block', I have taken all the solenoids off and a few of the plugs. I do not see any damage or debris. Looks clean. I have not taken any valves apart, only removed the big valve that is a 32mm. Looked clean.

I have not cut the filter open. I am an Adept Ape guy (he's helped me with my c12) so I do appreciate the video.

I need more information on the return manifold. Haven't checked but this entire skid was packed full of mud and dirt. We have removed about 7-10 gallons. I am assuming its under the hydro filter???

Thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cbritt927]

Also, they said it was important to torque all the coils to the valves but they didn't have a torque spec available.. .

 

[mg2361]

I have not cut the filter open.

This is the priority at the moment. Need to see what is in there. When there are fan speed issues on those machines, it usually means debris in the system. Those machines are prone to hydraulic pump failures. There was product improvement program to address that, and your machine did not get done. I am not saying your hydraulic pump has failed, but we need to eliminate it, so let's check that filter.

they said it was important to torque all the coils to the valves but they didn't have a torque spec available

The spec is usually stamped on top of the coil. I believe it will be in the 3-5 ftlb. range.

As far as the 'valve block', I have taken all the solenoids off and a few of the plugs. I do not see any damage or debris.

It could still be the issue. Normally we flow test the pump and then at the motor to see if there is excessive leakage inside the valve. For you, it may be cheaper to bypass the valve to test to see if the fan speed comes up. You will have to acquire either fittings or jumper hoses to do the job for testing. Connect the hose from port P to the hose from port A and the hose from port T to the hose that went to port B.

oil should be the Plus 50 0W-40 full synthetic, or Hydrau

Based on your serial number, the factory fill was 10W-30. The service fill for your serial is now Hydrau (a 68 oil). After serial number 287XXX (which, again is not your machine) the service fill was Hydrau XR (a 46 synthetic oil). I do not know what changed in the components to go from the Hydrau to the Hydrau XR. So my recommendation is to fill your machine with Hydrau once the issue is determined and resolved.

 

[cbritt927]

A full day on it. At my wits end.

Cut open the filter. Clean. Inspected the hell out of it.. Very Clean - no metal. (the main pump has already been replaced on this skid)...... Bought all new solenoid coils (3). Installed. Drained all the hydro and added 7 gallons of aw-68 + new filter. Drove a few times. Takes about 7 minutes to get to 212-218 degrees, which is right about 3/4 or 13/16 on the gauge. Guage is working because the thing is HOT. I sit there for a minute or two and it cools down to 1/2 on the gauge. (195ish)

The fan never really kicks in to 'super-high'. Just speeds up with the throttle. Unplugging the solenoid is no change. When I take the throttle down to idle, the fan actually stops. I remember a super-high fan speed because I would hear it blast off when my staff was in the skid and it was hot.

Here is where I am:
a) can a dealership reset the 'computer' to help drive the fan?

b) Thinking about a water pump failure? We did start the engine to test if with the thermo out and it did flow out of the thermostat housing, I just don't know how much power or head it should have... pretty good flow. Looked like a volcano. Not spitting, just flowing up and out of the housing. Thoughts on water pump issue? 2500 hours on 333e

c) is there debris now in the new fan pump that could be blown out?

d) Thank you so much for the bypass instructions. I suppose will do the bypass depending on your answers to a/b/c.

 

[Leo11684]

333E or 323D? I had same problem on a 333E. I found trash in the high speed solenoid valve stuck on the small plunger. As far as a 323D I’ve had the tandem pump mounted in front of the hydrostatic pump bad. Copper wear shims inside worn.

 

[cbritt927]

It's a 333e. I hijacked this old thread.

Is the 'high speed' valve the one that is sitting solo in the above pic?

 

[Leo11684]

Do you have a serial #

 

[mg2361]

Unfortunately, with the way this thread started, you already had components apart before asking questions. What really needs to happen is to start over with the machine back together and operating so a systematic diagnostic approach can be made. It may also require special tooling (like infrared temperature gun, photo tach, flow meters or pressure gauges) to diagnose.

To answer your questions
a) No
b) Depends. Cooling system integrity is best checked with temperature differential across the radiator. Too far of a spread means low coolant flow, too small of a spread means no air flow. Fan speed needs to be checked with a photo tach to confirm it is reaching full speed before I worry about the water pump.
c) There could be. That fan should never stop, even when cold. Did you replace the fan pump (which is actually the hydrostatic charge pump, not the hydraulic pump) or the fan motor? Both? You mentioned fan pump (charge pump), not the motor (attached to the fan). Has anyone checked charge pressure? Has the charge pump been flow tested? Fan speed checked with a photo tach?

 

[cbritt927]

My oh my! Thank you to the test. The fan is back!!! We almost took off like a 747.

Clearly the aluminum valve box is the problem. I would like to pull all the Allen plugs and valves and soak the box in a cleaning chemical or gasoline. In your experience is the debris in the box or valves? I pulled all 3 valves and they looked fine. Didn't soak them in anything though. I will remove the rubber orings but do you see any reason not to soak the box? Nothing inside but valleys like a transmission, correct?

Now it's either debris, or an electrical issue.

 

[mg2361]

I recommend replacing the whole vale assembly. The moving parts within that valve total $1400, the assembly is $1600. Make darn sure there is going to be no more contamination in the system if you go with a new one. But, what do have to lose? Try cleaning it.

 

[cbritt927]

MG2361 -

Okay.. Some good news and not so good. I took apart the assembly and soaked the box and all the valves etc in gas for a couple days. Blew everything out with air and put back together. Started..... no immediate noticeable difference. =( Then I started bumping the throttle and got it to fire. (meaning the fan takes off). I've been playing with harness, torque of coils etc...

Now I am to the point where it will not fire with the electric plugged in, and when I unplug it takes off, sometime immediately and sometimes after I turn up the throttle. (top solenoid only, not really messing with the bottom 2)

I put a multimeter on the harness and am consistently getting 10.49 volts to the coil. Throttle position doesn't matter; it's always 10.49 volts. Tested battery while running and getting +-13.6 volts on battery while running. So, should I be getting 12 volts? or is 10.49 at spec?

Appreciate all your help.

 

[mg2361]

So, should I be getting 12 volts? or is 10.49 at spec?

Neither. That is a Pulse Width Modulated Duty Cycle circuit. A volt meter will only read the average voltage, and that voltage does not change. It is how long the voltage is "on" that changes and that is what controls the solenoid. If your meter has duty cycle, then you would be able to see the change of command from the controller.

Pulse Width Modulation Explained

Sounds like you need either the solenoid assembly, or the whole valve assembly.