JD 450c engine rust scale problems

[equip guy]

Hi fellas, today I was working on a JD 450c dozer that had a blown head gasket, machine is from 1980, I took pics today but haven't down loaded them yet. After pulling the head I noticed that approx 80% of the coolant passages on the block and head were closed up with heavy rust scale. I'm leaning towards the gasket failure due to restricted flow. The unit has 1400hrs on it and the last coolant change was in 2004 from what was listed, my question is this, after I cleane out the ports on the block and the head what do you think I should use to clean out the rest of the block. I have heard of acid based descaler cleaner, but do you think this might make a woese problem if there problems on the liners? I need to have this machine in service by next tuesday for a time sensitive job. I hate to put it back together as I wanted to pressure check with the head on and the oil pan off to see if coolant was pushing through the liners. I can revisit the issue in a couple of weeks even though I have to undue all that new work. ( I know it's stupid, but cust wants it slapped back together for job), Due you think if I descale that it might cause worse issues before they use it? Do you think it would remove all scale too. This would have to be done in chasis. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[willie59]

I've never been fond of caustic cleaners in an engine cooling system. If it can cut loose and clean scale, what else is it eating on (seals, rad core). And being a customer machine, even more precarious. If it developed a leak in the rad core a week later, or water pump started leaking a month from now, the customer would likely equate these new problems to the chemical wash out procedure. I think I would show, or at least inform customer of block ports, scrape the ports open, fit the head with new gasket, and thoroughly flush system with water, then fill with coolant and DCA additive. That way if other problems develop, you can make the case that it's nothing that you did, instead it's likely result of existing corrosive problem.

 

[Nige]

The scale is one thing, and I agree with Willie that something needs to be done about it, but when you can't see down into the depths of the engine do you really want to toss a coin and throw in some extremely caustic chemical that could potentially cause more problems leading to the need for a total engine strip. If I'm brutally honest I would recommend a total engine strip to the customer right now based on what you see around the head area. That way critical parts could be bead blasted or similar to get rid of the scale and reopen the blocked coolant passages. You already touched on what you think caused the head gasket to go in the first place. You're right on in my book, and that's without even seeing photos or the engine itself.

So there you have it. If the customer wants the engine buttoned up to do a job I can understand that, the machine makes him money. However I would show him the engine and explain to him EXACTLY what it needs to sort it out correctly, and EXACTLY in my book is nothing less than a full engine tear-down. If he chooses not to follow your recommendations after being shown what's needed he can hardly blame you later if it all goes wrong can he ..?

Personally I would junk the glycol-based coolant/SCA filter setup and throw some low-silicate (ELC-type) coolant into it.

 

[partsandservice]

The head gasket likely failed from shear deteriation. I would advise customer and then put the new head gasket on (give 'em what they want till it hurts) while trying to disturb as little of this scale as possible. If you break it up then it will really clog things up. And when do get the go ahead to fix it you will need to do it all, head, block, wp, rad.

 

[Nige]

The head gasket likely failed from shear deteriation.

If it was the original engine head gasket maybe so, although with only 1400 hours (albeit in a space of 30 years) on the engine I find that hard to believe. But the fact that as per the OP's comment that 80% of the coolant passages up through the block were plugged that sure didn't help the situation much either ..........

 

[jeff112]

If the machine was not overheating before the gasket failure, I would document with pictures as you did,pull out the rust with a pick that is in the head and block and flush it out. Install new gasket pressure test and go from there. Not the right way to make it like new, but after all its not new and the customer needs it.

 

[cutting edge]

Run dishwasher soap through it for an hour or 2,rinse with clean water and then fill with anitfreeze.

 

[Randy88]

If its that bad in the head, what is the rest of the engine, radiator, water pump and all the rest look like? If its that bad no matter what you do, its not going to cure anything, shy of a complete tear down and rebuild, so however you do it make sure the customer see's it and advises you on what he wants you to do and do just that, what your told, its going to end up being repeat business no matter how its handled today, with either a plugged radiator, shot water pump, overheating, you name it, its bound to happen. If you do as your told and make a point to describe whats about to come, its his call on how its handled today and in the future, take pictures and do some documentation to cover your butt and move on after doing what your told, its not yours and its not really your call to make, only yours to make suggestions, who knows it might turn out alright in the end, he might have a deal going to trade it off or to put a rebuit engine in it, or give him some time to figure out just what to do with it himself. Best of luck

 

[bigmark234]

I would do as every mechanic in this situation should do, paperwork and borescope video as far in as possible and a clearly detailed
explanation of the internal conditions with a copy of of the video to the customer (keeping a copy for your files) and a waiver that
you cannot be held liable for conditions beyond your allowance for repairs(CYA).
But that is just what we do to protect our company and our reputation.
Good Luck, bigmark234

 

[equip guy]

Hi guys, sorry responding back late. First thanks for all the replies. I had the weekend to think over on what most of you had commented. I was really bothered that the customer was willing to do a half ass job, only to pull back in and repeat those steps and do further work later. I took many pictures and met with the customer monday morning and brought him to the machine where I had it torn down. I also agree with many of you on how this should be done and I relayed that info to the customer and also gave you knowledgeable folks a plug on some of your responses. After meeting for 45min and showing him all that was wrong and what could happen if we were to go his route, he approved the tear down, which will include new liners (pitted), pistons, rings, rod bearings, gaskets, seals, water pump, radiator flush, block flush. Head flush. No chemical wash( thanks willie), valve cleaning, and adjusting, couple of new fittings, injectors checked, new return lines, new grommets for return nuts, new blade cutting edges, LH finial drive seal and sump gasket, full service and lube.
I almost refused to do the first scope of work since it wouldn't have been done right, times are tough for many including myself, but for it to have the potential to boomerang me and possible litagation even with all the documentation and pics, it wasn't worth it. I now have over $2000 in parts ordered and should have this wrapped up next week. Thanks again for all the advise. Tom

 

[Randy88]

Apparently the guy wants to keep the machine awhile and once told of his options he quickly figured out it was his cheapest way to go in the long run, excellent job on the presentation of his options, he must have some faith in you or he'd have just opted for a cheap patch job and worried about it later. Sounds like he might be a good long term customer for you in the long run.

 

[equip guy]

Hi guys, Just an update on the job. I pilled all apart and DID find that the liners and to flat aced O rings were pitted. The scale in the wate jackets weren't as bad as I thought, although the scale was significant enough on the block where the top liner square cut seal would tear if not dealt with. I used a cordless drill with an irwin bit extension and a 3/4 sanding drum to follow around the sealing surface to remove the rust build up. Figured it was the best approach and minimized any real metal removal. I transfered rods over to new pistons w/new liners, and installed new rod bearings, BUT I have one small problem. I work alone 95% of the time and I'm having a Bitch of a time installing the o rings into the block solo. Due to they are a little bit larger and must set into the grooves, I get 90 percent around, then it buckles, and then it falls out of place. They reccomend no petroleum products on the o rings, so I'm limited to what I can used for retention. I know I'll soap them when I install the liners, but does have a trick to fitting these w/o help. I took pics on the camera, but can find the cord to the computer. Used the wifes cam, but she's gonna have to down load it for me. Huh I can rebuild heavy equipment, but can't figure out a f#$kn camera Ha Ha. Thanks for all your help, and Happy New Year to all of you. Tom

 

[stinkycat]

Can't remember the name but used a pine soap on the "O" rings on Waukesha engine liners came in jar like a salve real heavy but not petroleum based worded real well

 

[alrman]

Rubber grease - as used in brake cylinder rebuilding - it's not petroleum based.

 

[Nige]

Nice to hear the positive outcome. The one thing you really need to finish off the job IMO is some decent ELC-type coolant after it's all been rebuilt instead of some cheap SCA & you'll be cooking with gas .......

If the customer jibs on the cost of the coolant then show him these 2 pictures. Both are Cat 3400 cylinder liners from the same customer. One engine used SCA-based coolant and failed at 5400 hours with cooling related problems (cracked head IIRC), the other engine used ELC coolant and was torn down for overhaul at over 10,000 hours. The pics are totally genuine and not Photoshopped in any way.

 

[Randy88]

Nige, please elaborate more on the coolant abbreviations, I'm assuming the ELC type is the pink newer coolant and the other is the old green style, next question I've got is what happens when the new type is put into an older system with only a wash out being done to the system, will it loosen up the old gunk left behind?

 

[Nige]

ELC (aka Extended Life Coolant) is also known as silicate-free coolant. Generally it is pink or red in colour and tastes "bitter". This type of coolant does NOT contain glycol.
SCA (aka Supplemental Coolant Additive) is the additive normally added on a regular basis to glycol-based coolants. Often SCA is contained inside a coolant "filter" that gets changed every so often and the chemical is dissolved into the cooling system. These coolants are often (but not always) green or blue and taste "sweet".

From my experiences over the past 10 years with coolants I would not even consider using SCA/glycol-based coolant any more. In fact all our Cummins engines here came with glycol/SCA. We just junked it at the first sign of the trouble in the analysis, generally less than 1000 hours, and flushed with water and refilled with ELC. Problem solved.

ELC is more expensive initially but it will last up to 12,000 hours in off-road equipment and 600,000 miles IIRC in on-highway applications. With ELC type coolant you add a liquid "extender" chemical at mid-life of the coolant.

 

[Nige]

Sorry Randy, I didn't answer your question about changing coolants. If a system using SCA-based coolant is in good condition and you want to change to ELC then usually all it needs is a good flushing with water and the engine run up to temperature with just plain water in it, then drain and fill with ELC.

If you have a system of "unknown cleanliness" then I would either wait until you do an engine teardown to change coolants, or use a cooling system cleaner. I've used this type of product before, you can add it to a system with SCA/glycol already in it and continue to run the engine. After a certain amount of time you drain the mixture then flush with water until what comes out of the drain is clean before refilling with ELC.

 

[Randy88]

So is the stuff mixed with anything or dumped in straight and not need to worry about strength of the product? Also then we can take the coolant filters off completely and eliminate them? Your saying its basically a lifetime coolant then, right? At that kind of hours I'd never need to replace it in most of my engines. When is mid life determined? I've sat through a few seminars on the subject but didn't fully understand what was presented or how it related to hours or life expectancy of the coolant. Thanks for the information

 

[Nige]

All low-silicate coolant (AFAIK) now comes pre-mixed 50/50 with distilled water. You used to be able to get concentrate a few years ago that you could mix yourself (there was even an ASTM spec for it) but so many people ignored the instructions and mixed it with whatever water they could get their hands on that the manufacturers soon quit making it and elected to supply only the pre-mixed variety. It caused more trouble than it was worth.

At "mid-life" (see below) the low-silicate coolant needs a "booster shot" of Coolant Extender which is basically a super-concentrated version of the coolant in liquid form that you just take off the rad cap and drop it in. Usual addition is 1-2% of the total system capacity. So if the system total capacity was 25 gallons you would add 1-2 quarts.

Yes, you can take the SCA coolant filters off completely and plug the lines. In fact you must NEVER mix SCA-based and low-silicate based coolants.

The sales literature I have seen to date is that the coolant is good for 12,000 hours or 6 years in off-road equipment subject to a Level 2 coolant analysis every year and the addition of Coolant Extender whenever the analysis calls for it or at 6,000 hours, whichever comes first. Generally we see our 90+% of our cooling systems making it to 6,000 hours before needing the addition of Extender, but remember that for us 6,000 hours is less than one year's operating. For equipment working just a few hours per week I would not bother with the collant analysis and just drop 2% volume of Extender in after 3 years.

Even if I was operating a machine that only did 50 hours a week I would not even consider putting SCA-based coolant in it based on what I've seen when engines are torn down - and if the inside of the engine is like that then the inside of the radiator must be the same way, right .....?? if you want to avoid overheating issues how could you NOT use it..?