JD 450e clutch question- wrong Pp?

[Syleng1]

So I bought a 86’ John Deere 450e dozier over the summer. Bad clutch- slips when hot. I’ve been working on it since about 98’ for the customer. Right now it has 3,889 hrs documented.
TO450EC732442
I just pulled the engine and found what looks like a pressure plate for a steering clutch engine n place of a drive clutch pressure plate. The face surface of the pp is only 1” wide. the friction disk has wear only on 1” of the 2-1/2” material. The fly wheel side of the disk is worn only at the outer edge. Fly wheel has no heat marks or cracks just rusty. Does anyone know if this is normal or did someone replace this clutch with the wrong part many years ago? The previous owner bought it used with 3,100hrs. And barely used it until this summer and worked it kinda hard for a day or two and it started to slip and sold it to me.
Let me know your thoughts. Any John Deere wrenches I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks-
Syleng1

 

[lantraxco]

That serial number shows a 12" clutch as opposed to the earlier 11", just FYI. Can't say on the pressure plate but I agree, she don't look right. The parts update, and there's a kit, which updates I assume to include the new parts. Doesn't look like it had near enough pressure, let alone surface area.

 

[Syleng1]

That serial number shows a 12" clutch as opposed to the earlier 11", just FYI. Can't say on the pressure plate but I agree, she don't look right. The parts update, and there's a kit, which updates I assume to include the new parts. Doesn't look like it had near enough pressure, let alone surface area.

Thank you Lantraxco.
Yes- that is a 12” clutch with dual bolt pattern flywheel. I agree it does not look right, I’ve done hundreds of clutches on all kinds of equipment in the 25 years I’ve worked for myself. I’ve never seen this small a pressure plate mating surface on that wide of a drive disk. Why put all that friction material and only 1/4 of it is being used. Because it is now my machine - I second guess, “could the slippage be that simple?” If this was a clients machine I would not even question and would install a proper clutch and go from there.
Joe

 

[lantraxco]

Thank you Lantraxco.
Yes- that is a 12” clutch with dual bolt pattern flywheel. I agree it does not look right, I’ve done hundreds of clutches on all kinds of equipment in the 25 years I’ve worked for myself. I’ve never seen this small a pressure plate mating surface on that wide of a drive disk. Why put all that friction material and only 1/4 of it is being used. Because it is now my machine - I second guess, “could the slippage be that simple?” If this was a clients machine I would not even question and would install a proper clutch and go from there.
Joe

I'm guessing here, but it just may be that what you have there is one generation of disk, with a different generation of pressure plate?

 

[Syleng1]

I'm guessing here, but it just may be that what you have there is one generation of disk, with a different generation of pressure plate?

I called the dealer and found out that pressure plate is normal. 1.125”. The gear ratio is the why they don’t need a heavy pressure plate. If I go aftermarket I can get a big boy pressure plate. Honestly now I am going toward pulling transmission as the clutch is not the problem now that I realize the clutch is not the actual issue.

 

[lantraxco]

Is it only in forward? one side more than the other? How's the transmission pressure?

 

[mg2361]

Did you check and adjust the HLR clutch valve (hydraulic clutch adjustment)? That is the most common issue with those machines and a perceived clutch slippage issue. You probably noticed a little lever with a screw and nut in the clutch housing connected to the throw-out bearing. That is the adjustment rod for the HLR clutch. That is adjusted with the engine running and with a pressure gauge in the transmission.

 

[Syleng1]

Did you check and adjust the HLR clutch valve (hydraulic clutch adjustment)? That is the most common issue with those machines and a perceived clutch slippage issue. You probably noticed a little lever with a screw and nut in the clutch housing connected to the throw-out bearing. That is the adjustment rod for the HLR clutch. That is adjusted with the engine running and with a pressure gauge in the transmission.

MG2361- no I did not. The machine was at JD and they checked all. I was unable to work on it for my customer this time so they shipped to JD for about 3 months.When I bought it from my customer, it was delivered directly from JD. I spoke to the service department manager directly who said “the main drive clutch is shot and the transmission is slipping hot. Because some of the shafts and seals are discontinued we can not in good faith open up the machine of that vintage and guaranty a repair. When hot the fwd and rev clutch packs are leaking. You can do this in a weekend and use aftermarket parts with success.” I took him at his word and pulled the engine before my service manuals came in. I’ve done a few hundred machine clutches. I may reinstall the engine - hook it back up and then try all pressure readings. And start over. When a dealer says the main clutch is bad and quotes a clutch and transmission repair in the $7-$10k range. You would assume they had a handle on this. Now I am afraid they never looked at the machine as the ports and covers were still dirty. Like they never even tried. They wrote this one off as “old” and nobody wants to work on it.
Ultimately it is my fault tearing it down with out doing my due diligence.

 

[Syleng1]

Is it only in forward? one side more than the other? How's the transmission pressure?

Unknown- see my below post to MG2361 please. Sadly I feel I did a bad thing “jumping the gun” and tearing it down a head of getting my manuals in.” The owner I purchased the machine from said the machine was fine for about an hour of running then was harder and harder shifting with some gear grinding. And would slowly stop pushing. Forward not sure on reverse because it has no real load in reverse. It operates like a lady but I drove it off the 20ton from John Deere and directly into my shop. It sat there since Sept. collecting dust until my typical slow down after Christmas. When I work on my own stuff during dead periods. Not many people pushing dirt in New England during freezing temps.lol!

 

[Welder Dave]

It sounds like no one at the dealership is very familiar with them so they didn't want to bother with it. I've heard of this kind of thing happening before.

 

[lantraxco]

Gear grinding? Sounds like an operating problem to begin with.

 

[old-iron-habit]

I have never been into an E model but the D and previous have a very sequential adjusting procedure for the clutch and forward/ reverser that must be followed exactly. I bought a 455D with the clutch "bad" and 4 hours later it worked like new. It still is with the new owner 10 years later. Your clutch pedal probably has two positions, half to stop the powershift and all the way to stop the PTO of equipped and to shift the gearbox. They get adjusted wrong regularly by folks whom never looked at a manual. It is not as one would think by looking at it. I believe you are on the right path now with your manuals. Good luck and let is know how you make out.

 

[mg2361]

They wrote this one off as “old” and nobody wants to work on it.

It sounds like no one at the dealership is very familiar with them so they didn't want to bother with it.

Unfortunately these comments may be true. Syleng, if your local dealership is anything like ours then they may or may not have anyone who is old enough to have worked on these. At our branch (we have 5 shop and 5 road techs) I am the only tech who has been around to not only have worked on them but has been to JD school on them when they were new (and I'm still doing this...why?). The other 9 techs we have I can say with confidence that 1 may have seen one and the other 8 have never seen one let alone worked on one. So yes, you could still have a transmission issue if they have someone with experience doing the diag. I have seen my fair share of clutch manifolds wearing out and roll pins loosening and/or falling out of the HLR clutch linkage. But 80% of the time the adjustment is the issue with those units. So lets hope for the simple repair.

 

[Vetech63]

I am the only tech who has been around to not only have worked on them but has been to JD school on them when they were new

Was there electricity back then? LOL

 

[Welder Dave]

I had a 1987 JD355D and the shop foreman at the time (around 1999) was familiar with them but he is no longer at the dealership. To me 1987 doesn't seem that old to not be able to get service work or proper diagnostics done. There were a lot of 350's and 450's sold. They were doing certified re-life programs on them as well. Maybe JD should offer service schools for popular older machines?

 

[JL Sargent]

Was there electricity back then? LOL

mg2361 AKA Fred Flintstone.

 

[Welder Dave]

Barney Rubble was the better mechanic. Remember the Rubstone Special.

Indianrockolis 500 | The Flintstones | Fandom

The Flintstones | Indianrockolis 500 - YouTube

 

[Syleng1]

Unfortunately these comments may be true. Syleng, if your local dealership is anything like ours then they may or may not have anyone who is old enough to have worked on these. At our branch (we have 5 shop and 5 road techs) I am the only tech who has been around to not only have worked on them but has been to JD school on them when they were new (and I'm still doing this...why?). The other 9 techs we have I can say with confidence that 1 may have seen one and the other 8 have never seen one let alone worked on one. So yes, you could still have a transmission issue if they have someone with experience doing the diag. I have seen my fair share of clutch manifolds wearing out and roll pins loosening and/or falling out of the HLR clutch linkage. But 80% of the time the adjustment is the issue with those units. So lets hope for the simple ]

MG2361- thank you.
Thank you for the energy and pictures.
I just got in yesterday the filter new from JD along with seals. My line of thought was if this trans operates like the trans pick up filter in the 450 - 750 backhoes. When those clogged... they had all types of issues. Thank you for making me feel like I’m on the right track. I got my service manuals in recently and found the filter in the parts book. I ordered that immediately.
The valve rings that wear is new to me. Yesterday I got power washed every thing including the engine and I am replacing all hoses for coolant and hydraulic while apart. I found the trans cooler clogged solid with dirt outside and a thick goo on the inside restricting flow inside. Now that it is clean I will reinstall the engine and try that pressure reading for the clutch valve to verify pressure. I am also dropping that internal filter and replacing it and the trans oil. I am praying (although I’m sure Jesus is not a mechanic Lol!) the trans did not over heat and ruin any shaft seals or piston seals on clutch packs for fwd. rev and final drives.
If my engine is back in, I may have to remove it again, but while it’s back in, I then can spin the machine around and get the drive train out without a different larger machine. I will check out the valve that I can physically get to external trans while engine is out. Then if internally things are bad... I now have my plan.

Side note: when ordering all hoses, gaskets even for oil cooler, t-stat I was shocked on top rad hose cost. $175 for a 2-1/4” hose that has quite a few complicated bends. Lower hose was $28.
Gosh- Genuine parts are best but I spend $450 on just hoses and small gaskets. No wonder these machines are sought after, but poorly maintained. Lol!