John Deere 333D not moving???

[onebadsob3]

We have a 333D skidsteer that I run a lot at our business and one day I was pushing with it and it was running fine. I came up hill and it started to slow and I throttle up and got it up on level ground, but then it just stopped pulling. It would only do circles in one direction, but I can't remember at the moment since it has been so long since this journey started. It would still operate the boom and bucket, but it was like you had to throttle it up to get it to work better, if not, it might not lift the boom.

Got a buddy that works for James River but doesn't live close by so he isn't really keen on coming by and looking at it, and the business is being slack on calling somebody so I'm trying to take this project on myself. I asked the deere mechanic and he told me to pull the filter. I took it off and it had a bunch of metal/brass in it so he said a pump had failed. He said to buy the end pump, a oring and a filter and try that, so I did. Put it on and nothing, it still would just do circles in that one direction if you throttled it all the way up. He made it sound like the main expensive pump had failed so I started looking for one of them.

Found one on ebay and after everything, it was like 4200 shipped for a new deere pump, which really was good compared to buying it from the store. Finally got it installed today, hooked everything up, found some bad wiring going to the solenoids and fixed that, add fluid, cranked it up, and it was worse! Now it doesn't do circles throttle up, seems like the boom could be slower, but it seems like there has to be a blockage or something just wrong? Kind of seems like you maybe even hear the big pump whine like it doesn't have enough oil although it is getting oil.

I called the deere guy up and he was about to go out of town for the weekend but said he was try to get by in the next week or so, but just thought I would ask you guys to see if you might could get me going?

It's full of fluid, both pumps are brand new, I cracked a line going to the drive motor with it running and I have fluid coming out so it is pumping, took the lines off the front pump, just turned it over and it did pump fluid when it turned over, when it was running, it had pressure coming out of the hose coming from the atenuator thing.

Just not sure what I have done wrong or missing? Like it may has a blockage, or a solenoid not working, or something.

Any help would be greatly appreciated because I am at a loss at the moment!
Charlie

 

[mg2361]

Need the machine's complete serial number, please.

Metal in the filter is not a good start. Do you still have the old filter that you can post a picture of the metal that is in it? Has the system been throughly flushed?

Under those pumps on the floor of the machine (on the left looking in) is a return manifold. Has that been removed and inspected for metal?

Does the cooling fan at the rear of the machine turn when the engine is idling?

Any codes in the monitor? Press and hold the menu button until the words SERVICE MENU appear in the screen. Scroll to codes and select. Record what codes there are. Being in the service menu you can clear the codes. See what returns, if any.

 

[onebadsob3]

Sorry for not replying sooner but I didn't feel like working on it over the weekend and then today if I wasn't hauling equipment, I was servicing a dump truck since it was raining most of the day it seemed like.

If my original post had any repeats to it, sorry about that, but I think I could have been falling asleep as I typed it.

The s/n is 1T0333DMPCD232952

Think the original filter is is still in the back of the truck, just hasn't been thrown away yet, but if so, I'll cut it open and see what it looks like.

The cooling fan does spin come on and spin/turn after cranking it or with it idling.

It doesn't have any active codes that I remember, just a bunch of inactive codes, but I'll check again just to make sure. I will follow your advice about holding it the menu button to get into the service menu and report back.

The return manifold has not been messed with yet. I know where you are talking about, but some more dirt just needs to be removed to see it and pull it apart to get that screen out to see what it looks like. Hopefully tomorrow I can spend a few hours working on this machine and posting back with some new info.

Also, I don't think the drive motor is bad, because I took the one apart that seems to not be moving, and everything looked good, not locked up or anything, just like it is not getting enough fluid to. If I mentioned this in the previous post, sorry for saying it again, but after replacing the pump, now the machine doesn't have any travel function at all, so it will not spin to the left or the right(whichever way it would only go before, now it doesn't go either).

 

[mg2361]

And as a double check, the hydraulics work?

Definitely post any codes and check that return manifold.

Has any pressures been checked, charge pressure in particular? Especially when trying to travel.

When you activate a travel function, does it sound like it goes over relief or does it do nothing? If it does nothing, get yourself some steel caps. Disconnect the travel motors at the pumps. Cap off the pumps. Try to travel. Does it now go over relief?

Have you tried to calibrate the hydrostats? That is supposed to be done whenever components are replaced.

You should acquire the Operation and test manual TM11454.

 

[onebadsob3]

I spent yesterday and today on this thing and I'll post what I know. First off, I'm no professional mechanic on these, I'm just pretty much doing this on the fly because the boss wouldn't get anybody out here to fix it, and after talking to the deere mechanic that wouldn't come out here but probably cost us a bunch of money on this because he didn't really research it for me, I just listened to him and bought a pump, and then another pump.

Yesterday we pressured washed about all of the remaining dirt and mud out of it and made it workable where you could see stuff. It actually made be able to see the return manifold and the bottom hoses of the hydraulic tank along with all of the others that were covered up.

Anyways, checked the codes as you requested, no active codes, so I cleared the codes.

Had to go get buy some wrenches this morning so I could get the screen out of the manifold, but I finally got it out! It had some small glitter stuff and maybe one bigger piece of metal to it, but it wasn't clogged to keep it from flowing. I decided that while I was in it, I'd start taking lines off and us air hose and blow thru them to make sure there were no restrictions of blockages. You could see some glitter flakes come out of the manifold housing as I blew air in the hoses and it came out of it. Then there was one hose I blew into, that it actually blew bigger piece of metal out, almost like it was maybe blocked in the line, but it and a smaller piece came out along with the oil as I blew air thru. I basically did this with every hose I could and it was that was the only time I only saw something of size or felt a restriction come out.

Do the hydraulics work? Yes and No. When you crank it up. It doesn't move forward, backwards, left or right. The bucket doesn't go up, in or out. If you rev it up, then the lift will raise the bucket up and curl it in or out! You can then go back to an idle and it might pick it back up and might not. So normally for it to work, you need to have it throttle up. Before I changed the travel pump, it would turn in circles to the right I think with it throttled up, but now it doesn't do that.

I saw it say something about calibrating hydrostats in the service menu, but no I have not done that yet. Never done this so thanks for helping and teaching me during this process.

No pressures have been checked yet since we don't have any gauges(Going through this project, should have done this first, no called somebody to work on this first, then checked pressures). I have an adapter I believe would fit the coupler, just no gauge, but I'm going to call another guy or 2 close by and see if they have some to check the pressure. The deere mechanic was saying if I remember right, between 4-500 maybe would be good?

Just found the manual in .pdf form online and purchased it, so I do have it saved to the computer

When you say check charge pressures, how do you go about that? Do you check that in a different spot other than at the filter housing? Also, I just found out today after tracing lines, that the pump on the engine is the hi flow charge pump. The deere guy seems it is what gives pressure to the pumps, so if it would have failed, then that is why I have no function probably. Just would have been nice to have known that to begin with if it is indeed bad!

Lastly, you say, when you try to activate a travel function does it go over relief or do nothing, what do you mean by go over relief? To be honest with you, when I try to move it, I don't notice a difference in sound in the machine. Doesn't seem like it is struggling. Online thing that I might hear is maybe the pump whining if I have it throttle up trying make it do something and it doesn't, like it isn't getting enough oil but, maybe that is just me? I know it has oil going through it, but just no pressure on the oil going through it.

 

[mg2361]

I think you have some big issues. With metal in the system, a total system clean up will need to be done or you will have another failure.

Did any codes return?

The bucket doesn't go up, in or out. If you rev it up, then the lift will raise the bucket up and curl it in or out!

This is a problem. Might have debris sticking the spools. Try the hydraulic calibration to see if it speeds up. I don't think it will, but worth a try. That procedure can be found in the electrical section/references.

Do you check that in a different spot other than at the filter housing?

Charge pressure is checked at the filter head. Get a gauge and check that. What is the pressure at idle, full throttle, and when trying to drive the machine.

Then there was one hose I blew into, that it actually blew bigger piece of metal out,

Where does this hose come from? Might be a clue as to the source of the original failure. Post a picture of the chunks.

Also, I just found out today after tracing lines, that the pump on the engine is the hi flow charge pump. The deere guy seems it is what gives pressure to the pumps, so if it would have failed, then that is why I have no function probably.

Nope. The high flow pump is just for the high flow circuit. The charge pump and the hydraulic pump that works the loader are mounted on the forward side of the hydrostatic pumps.

In your service manual, under the hydraulic or hydrostatic sections, there is a good theory of operation section. Also, in those sections are component location charts as well as testing sections.

 

[onebadsob3]

Well, after looking at that manual some you told me to download today, I realized that the pump at the motor is for the high flow for the machine so that isn't another pump I'll need to buy. I figured out that the charge pump is at the end of the pump.

I've tried calibrating the tracks, but it says the temperature is not high enough. Not sure what the temp needs to be or how long to run it for. Let it run for a little bit and i tried going forward and i could fill the machine almost want to do something but that was it.

I'm pretty sure the hose comes from the hydraulic control valve and goes to the return manifold. Basically under hydraulic relief valve.

Only code so far was a reversing fan one and that is because the guy keeping me put them in wrong so I switched them and I think it fixed that.

 

[mg2361]

You need to be able to cycle hydraulics until you reach temperature (140*F), which will be difficult at best with your situation.

Let's get a charge pressure reading.

As far as I know, none of the return manifold lines go to the control valve. The return from the fan, drive motor case drains, and the auxiliary case drain is all the there are. While any metal is not a good thing, that screen is not as bad as I was expecting. Was there more metal in the filter?

 

[onebadsob3]

I'm sorry for not getting back, I was working on the machine last week and then we got busy moving equipment so I just haven't got much done with it when I've got in.

I've been trying to concentrate on making sure everything is cleaned out and there are no blockages in any of the lines or solenoids that are accessible.

It's a hot mess now with lines apart and other parts taken off or laying around it but I really just need to pull the tank to drain it, make sure it is clean, put it back it back in and then I'll be ready to start putting it back together.

Last Friday I think it was, I removed the hydraulic control valve block(heavy damn thing) and took it apart and made sure nothing was stopped up with metal since the metal piece was from that line, so it went thru it I'm assuming? I'm pretty sure there is one line, connects at a port(say drivers side of the machine) under the valve you can adjust to set pressure from looking at that book you said to get, that returns to the manifold. Anyways, it was clean so I put it back in.

Haven't checked the pressure yet, haven't got a gauge yet, but it hasn't been cranked since i tried to calibrate it since iI've been working on it.

No, the filter was not really bad, just fine stuff that you could feel, but nothing bad that I thought. You can feel a gritty feel sometimes as if it is metal or dirt in the fluid I guess? I thought i posted some pictures of it the first time but I guess not.

I need to put the cooler back in for the hydraulic oil(took it out to check for any blockages and to clean it out).

THIS IS MY NEW QUESTION?
Trying to blow everything out, I removed all of the big drive motor lines from the big center pump. Disconnected little line connections at the drivers side wall. 2 big lines and 3 smaller lines for each. I know one of the smaller lines is a return to the manifold. One must be a feed line from the center pump, not sure about the 3rd smaller one. Then you have your two big drive motor hoses.

Ok..

I can blow air in a big line on the drivers left side and have it push fluid or air back out the big line, it'll also push air fluid out the return line. I said we'll I don't see anything so I'll do the other side.

The right side, i can not do this! If I blow air into a big hose, it does not come out the other hose. If I try the other hose, it is the same way. Nothing comes out of nothing. Just wondering if this could be causing my problem, or maybe the left motor is the problem.

I took the right outside cover off the motor, it was nasty stinky black grease oil in there, but i took it apart and I didn't see any metal or nothing like it was seized up.

Just wanted to report what I found so far.

 

[onebadsob3]

A little more info not so long.

Left side drive motor.
I can blow thru the big hoses and it'll come out the other end of the hose that I'm not blowing into and also have stuff come out of the return hose.

Right side drive motor.
I try to blow thru the big hoses and get nothing coming out the end of the other hose I'm not blowing into. I also don't have anything coming out of the return hose.
But, I can blow into the return hose and i was able to get fluid and air blowing out of both ends of the big hoses?

I'm going to start putting things back on it and maybe I'll hear something back. Hopefully find somebody with a gauge or go get a kit to read pressure.

Just didn't know how the drive motors work, could one be damaged or blocked up? If I remember right, the right one was the one that would turn before and the left one was the one that would not. After changing the pumps, nothing moved! The left one allows fluid to go thru the lines and the right side does not the way it sits?

 

[onebadsob3]

Need the machine's complete serial number, please.

I think i may have figured the issue out? I think I read a response from another posting where you said something about capping off the hydro pump going to the drive motor? If not, I'm sorry, but I read it somewhere.

Either way, I never could get an answer about my drive motors, whether I should be able to blow thru them or not and i found a section that discussed the function of a drive motor in that manual you told me to download.

From my understanding, I shouldn't be able to blow thru the motor! When fluid goes to it, it pushes half of the pistons and slippers down to rotate in the direction you want to go.

Well, if I'm understanding right, that part must be messed up, so the motor is bypassing the fluid and causing the machine to not build charge pressure?

I capped off the left side motor and pump fittings and then cranked up the machine. I instantly had function of the lift and curl of the boom! Never had to rev it up or anything. Just to make sure, I hooked the left side drive motor back up and it went back to the way it was!

I'm guessing the left side motor failed? When I took the cover off, it didn't have any oil in it, but nothing was seized up or liked like it had got hot so I didn't think it was the issue. Maybe it was all along, I don't know, but it looks like I'm going to be looking for a drive motor now.

Still haven't checked pressure yet but I still plan on doing that this week.

 

[mg2361]

When I took the cover off, it didn't have any oil in it, but nothing was seized up

That is just a planetary gearbox. The drive motor is in the inboard side of that gearbox.

And no, you should be able to blow air through it.

 

[onebadsob3]

Ok, new update.

Still don't have gauges! Got a used drive motor from a machine with only 800 hours and installed it on the left side.

Put it back together and hoping for a miracle and still at a lost.

If i move the joystick forward or to the left, I have zero movement out of the machine.

If i move the stick to the right, the both tracks spins backwards.

If i move the stick backwards, the right track spins backwards and the left track spins forward.

No movement though if you push the the stick forward or to the right.

No codes, and under diagnostics, if you check the left joystick, it shows movement in all directions!

Please help!

 

[onebadsob3]

Well, I've made progress! Got yelled at for spending too much money but oh well. I think it wasn't too bad. Spent $2200 on the hydraulic pump, $4280 on the Hydrostatic Tandem Pump and $3531 on the drive motor. I had hopes to possibly sell the used pumps on ebay or marketplace for half off or so of retail price and see if anybody would want them since there isn't anything wrong with them to get some money back. I wish the james river guy would've came out here and looked at the machine rather than tell me what to buy, but he didn't and that was the beginning of this horror story.

I guess I learned that next time, maybe let them call a mechanic and pay them, or just let it sit?

Put the new drive motor in and had a leak. With all of the dirt build up over the years, I guess it ate away at the parking brake metal line, so when I cleaned the dirt out of that cavity, it either intensified the leak or just knocked the rust off of the line and caused it to leak. I was able have a hydraulic hose made and run it thru to replace the metal line, and that took care of the leak.

I looked the the manual and found the wiring diagram for the solenoids with the corresponding colors and numbers for each wire. I used that to check the wiring to the solenoids and I wasn't even close. I don't think I even had one right but it made me feel dumb but also relieved because I felt like I had found the steering drive problem.

Hooked them up correctly and guess what, the machine operates like it should! Then I put all the pieces back on it, the track, checked the fluids and it was ready to work!

Wasn't able to get it up to temperature yet up to calibrate the propel and lift yet but plan on doing that as soon as I have a chance to run it some.

Now though, it's throwing a code?

What is that about, is that something because I haven't run the calibration yet? Or is from the new used drive motor. I still have the speed sensor in the bad drive motor if that's the problem.

Thanks

 

[mg2361]

Glad to hear you have it sorted out. I was going to have you check wiring next.

As for the code, that is for the high flow solenoid. Did you leave it unplugged?