looking to buy a backhoe, any advice

[bowen]

Is there anywhere online to look at a parts book or repair manual on an E model?
....
Bowen, most everything I own lives on parts of some sort, the key it buying something that the parts are the easiest of any brand or model to replace and has parts available somewhere and for some time to come yet. Thanks for the imput guys.

If you don't care to pay $16 look here..
http://bestmanuals.net/zencart/
For the 580 Super E put the stabilizers down and look on the right rear on the transaxle to find the serial number.
The 580SE started out with dry brakes (like mine) but then the later 580Se's had wet brakes. I am told these were/are better machines.
I don't like the tachometer deal being coupled to the front of the injector pump. Some models used some form of electrical connection. (My tach and hour meter is all mechanical.)
This makes parts info and the service manual complicated or just wrong.
The manual I downloaded from the link above is version 9.2 I think. I suspect there are other versions that might be better for any particular machine.
Occasionally I run across something that is clearly slightly different.

I can send you an email about the parts link if you want to look at parts info.

 

[DGODGR]

The 680 is much bigger and different than the 580 or 480. As far as I know there are no 580Fs originally sold in the US. Maybe some 480Fs but I'm not sure. The 480 is a bit smaller though I think it is based on the same frame. Less HP, weight, and dig depth. IMO you should stay away from the 480. You are going to be using this in a professional setting and will potentially have enough trouble buying an older machine. Don't add gas to the fire by buying a smaller machine that will be wroking harder to do the same job.

 

[Randy88]

Thanks guys for the info about the manuals, and also the models, Bowen any idea what the serial number break would be for the machine with wet brakes? Late last night I looked at a D model machine, overall it was in pretty good shape, but had some issues, the first one was a severe valve leak on the backhoe, so bad it wouldn't even raise the machie off the ground, but it did give me something to compare others to. I'm thinking to avoid anything with a case engine in it altogether, the parts are harder to find to start with, as for the 480F we'll rule that off the list as well.

The guy we are working for has a K model 4x4 and extendahoe and wants to update to a M model, its got new tires all the way around and also a new torque converter in it, cab and he's wanting somewhere between 15 and 20K for it, I told him if he'd take 15K we'll deal, is that anything to consider? Its a super K but I don't know what year or anything about history of it, but it needs a seat, a lot of cosmetics, a paint job, lights fixed that are broke, the cab blower motor, and its in the 5000 hour range, the busings and pins also might need some attention, not bad but do those have busihings to replace or since its ductlile iron theres no replacement to bushings or rebuilding them? I'm not thinking he's been too generous with a grease gun while he's had it either, like hardly at all, he's a farmer who uses it for a loader and also to fix tile and I'm guessing he bought it off an auction somewhere, the sheet metals all banged to pieces, overall it doesn't look too great, so I ran some numbers as a guess and I'd have over 5 thousand spent on the small stuff right off the bat plus having to do it all, like replace parts and paint it, not too sure its a good deal at the end, I"d have to pull some oil samples to see what they show, but I'll look at a lot of others first.

Bowen, I'll wait until we get more serious on a machine before getting the parts link info from you. I"ve made a lot of calls and maybe found someone who does have some experience working on these machines locally, but he was out on service calls yesterday and I'll try to get ahold of him later this week to see what he can tell me, also someone said somehting about aftermarket parts, where can you get those from for a case backhoe?

 

[stumpjumper83]

15 is a little high in my opinion for something thats in the condition that you describe. Here is something I found quickly for you...

The City of Hiawatha has for sale a 1996 Case 580 Super L Backhoe. 4 wheel drive, extend-a-hoe, auxiliary hydraulics for breaker/tamper, 5000 hours, 24 inch and 12 inch buckets. Sealed bids will be received until 10 AM Dec. 20th 2011. Minimum bid of $12,500. Send sealed bid to City Clerk, City of Hiawatha, 101 Emmons St., Hiawatha, IA 52233. Backhoe may be viewed at Public Works Facility 1410 Robins Rd. Hiawatha, IA. Call 319-393-6601 to schedule appointment.

 

[Randy88]

OK I"ll admit I'd not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to computers, but how did you come up with that one?

 

[DirtIsMyName]

15 is a little high in my opinion for something thats in the condition that you describe. Here is something I found quickly for you...

The City of Hiawatha has for sale a 1996 Case 580 Super L Backhoe. 4 wheel drive, extend-a-hoe, auxiliary hydraulics for breaker/tamper, 5000 hours, 24 inch and 12 inch buckets. Sealed bids will be received until 10 AM Dec. 20th 2011. Minimum bid of $12,500. Send sealed bid to City Clerk, City of Hiawatha, 101 Emmons St., Hiawatha, IA 52233. Backhoe may be viewed at Public Works Facility 1410 Robins Rd. Hiawatha, IA. Call 319-393-6601 to schedule appointment.

I would take a look at this one. I was a lot more comfortable buying an L model because of the transmission and tanks. Tanks are in the frame on the K and can crack and leak. The K transaxle doesn't road well sometimes. There are lot of threads here with good buying advice, I should have kept links. Do stall tests and check for rust.

 

[bowen]

Bowen any idea what the serial number break would be for the machine with wet brakes?

1st this is ONLY for the 580SE so far as I know.
Look at this link..
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?26219-580SE-Parking-Brake-Leak
Down in this link there is also another link that tell deeper how to tell.
This is still somewhat vague to me. My transaxle is Model A179041. Serial # 16274426.
Seems that S/N 16270319 was a magic number, and I THINK I have dry brakes, but they sure do work good, and I am not sure what I have yet.
You can see the red stuff around the seal and a mechanic told me this might indicate that they were wet, but I do no know for now.
It's a 1985 model and they may have been replaced at some point.

 

[DGODGR]

I'm sure that most with extensive Case experience will have similar suggestions as DirtName. Many have commented here that the L series is the best one to date (Case is now offering the N series). The main problem is that these machines usually come with a higher price tag. IMO though spending a little more now could save a lot more later. As far as the K that your customer has those things you mention tell a much bigger story than what you can see that you need to fix. We've all heard that you can't judge a book by it's cover but in this case I think you would be wise to listen to the clues that are staring you in the face. If the owner can not be bothered to grease the machine I doubt they would be motivated to change oils, filters, or any other maintenance. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

 

[bowen]

....also someone said somehting about aftermarket parts, where can you get those from for a case backhoe?

Depends on what kind of part generally. Aftermarket parts are all over the web, but it helps to have the Case part number to start with.

 

[Randy88]

Thanks for the tips, my son is trying to get into this type of work at an entry level and I'm trying to help him but at the same time trying to stay out of it, its looking like I'll be a silent partner and want some beind the scenes info so I can somewhat direct him, [you know the dad thing] but there's no way he can spend a fortune to get a machine that I think he should, like a low houred late model almost new one, I don't want to step on his toes and push my weight around but at the same time not let him buy a total piece of scrap iron or bottomless money pit either, I was hoping for a better low usage E or K for a reasonable price, but I'll definately check into the L model up for bids. I"m not encouraging him to lease one either, he needs to know how to fix and have some sweat equity in the machine and also see if there is a need for this and he likes it first before diving in and if he needs an out, not cost him a fortune to bail out of it either. That and dad's not so sure he wants to own half interest or whatever in a 30k or more backhoe, 15k total or less looks better to me for my part of something thats not really going to make me much or probably cost me in the long run. I'm comparing to auction prices just to cover my butt and I'm not going to go much over those in case the whole thing turns sour and we need an out, that and older machines don't depreciate as fast or much at all once they hit a certain age, its the parts factor that adds cost to it not really lower values at resale time or tradein time.

 

[stumpjumper83]

Not sure I want to give all my secret powers away but here is a tip. "www.searchtempest.com" is a search engine of e-classified sites such as ebay & craigslist and such. I simply picked a iowa zip code and ran a 200 mile search for backhoes for sale...

 

[handtpipeline]

The oldest machine I'd be willing to back-grade to would be a 580 SL. This is gonna be long, but I'll tell you why...

I'm 39 yrs old, my dad started my company the year I was born. We started with 580 B's, I'm not sure how long the B had been out in 1972, but I do know that some of them we had didn't come with a ROPS canopy on them. Our mechanic installed the factory-supplied ROPS in the field on at least 2 of them I know of. We had a total of five 580 B's, the oldest being '72 models and I think the newest being about a 1975 model. The '75 model had a power shuttle, the other 4 were clutch machines. These are the machines I first learned to operate on. In 1977 I'm pretty sure (late '77) we bought 3 brand new 580 C's. 2 wheel drive, standard hoe, cab with heater. These 3 machines were the biggest pile of $h1t we ever owned. All 3 of them... Had Case work on them numerous times, our own mechanic worked on them... They just never were right. The only way you could lift the back of the machine off the ground with the back bucket was to raise the front bucket. Didn't have enough power to overcome the leverage of the extra length of the machine. if you got in mud bad enough to have to walk it out with both the front and back end, you might as well hook a dozer to it. They didn't have enough hydraulic power to work both functions at the same time. Cab was horrible on them, you couldn't tell where your back tires were when sitting on the seat, Real fun to load or unload off a trailer when you can't tell where your tires are. And the cab was an oven in the summertime.

One of the C's got stolen in about 1980, and we traded the other 2 C's in on 2 brand new 580 D's in 1991. Keep in mind, we traded the C's in, but still had 5- 580 B's... The operators preferred the B's over the C's... The 580 D's were both 2 wheel drive, standard hoe, open ROPS. The 580 D's were good machines. We kept both of them until 1990. In June of 1984, we bought our first 580 Super E's. Bought 2 of them at the same time. One was stolen 2 weeks later, so we bought another one, then in 1986 another one was stolen, so we got another new one. I beleive we traded the 2 oldest B's on the first E's, but not sure on that. I know from about 1980 till 1995 we had 7 backhoes at all times. Now about the E's, for their time, they were great machines. You could tell a lot of difference in power with the E's compared to the older machines, and hydraulic speed was quicker.

Now, why I wouldn't go back to any of these machines... These had all "evolved" from a farm tractor type base, starting I think with the 530, then going to the 580 Construction King, then to the 580 B. They started with a basic tractor, then added a loader and a backhoe attachment. State of the art for the time, but that time was 40 years ago. I can remember the whole backhoe attachment becoming loose when a Tie-bolt would loosen or even worse break. They had the steel tube backhoe boom, which just about every one of the machines mentioned ended up having to be welded back together at some point. Twin boom lift cylinders, that greatly reduced your view in the trench with a small bucket. We re-bushed MANY of the swing towers and bottoms of booms on these machines, they'd get so much slop in them that it was horrible trying to dig with them. And we were constantly re-packing hydraulic cylinders it seemed like. We replaced several bucket cylinders on the D's, as they'd get bent. This was fixed on the E, as they went to a beefier cylinder.

In 1990, we bought our first 580K. Again, it seemed to be a step backwards. The old E's we had would out-dig it. And the backhoe control levers had a habit of sticking. Also, the 4 speed lever for the transmission came up out of the floor on the right side, and by the time it was 6 months old, if you didn't know the "technique" for shifting it, it would bind up. Brakes were kinda crappy on it too. In 1991, got our first 580 K extendahoe. It was the next "Phase" than the first K, and was much improved. Sticking control issue was resolved, shifter was moved into right had console, and it actually had power and speed. In 1993 I bought a new 580 Super K. Again open ROPS, standard hoe, 2 wheel drive. It was another "phase" up, and was a very good machine. I kept it until it got stolen in September of 2009. Never had a major repair of any kind on this machine. It did have the common electrical "gremlins" the K's are famous for. But otherwise was a very good machine. In 1995, I bought my first cab machine since the C's. Brand new 580 Super L, cab with heat and air, standard hoe, 2 wheel drive. I wanted a 4x4 extendahoe, but it was going to take a couple of months to get one in, so I bought this one. It didn't have the A/c installed when I bought it, but a factory air unit was figured into the price, and installed when it came in about 2 weeks later.

Now here is some advice I'll give everyone... I can't imagine a used machine with air costing a lot more than one without A/c. Even if it doesn't work, it can be fixed. I WOULD NOT BUY A CAB BACKHOE WITHOUT A/C UNLESS I WAS ONLY GOING TO RUN IT IN ALASKA OR ANTARTICA... I bought this backhoe in April of 1995. I'm in Oklahoma. I ran it a week, then parked it for the other week until my air was installed. IT WAS LIKE SITTING IN A GREENHOUSE. Well, a greenhouse with a motor on the other side of the glass, and hot hydraulic components in the floor. I'm also kinda fanatical about if I have a cab machine, I don't want the interior of it to be covered in dust and dirt. I do dig most of the time with the back window open, but never open the side windows. I know it's bought to work, but when I spend over $50,000 on something, I kind of like it to be kept clean. Like people that will open all the windows because they're too lazy to clean them... One of my pet peeves.

Anyway... I kept the 580 Super L until September of 2009, when I used the insurance money from the 580 Super K and the Super L as trade in on my 580 Super M. The Super M is Cab with heat and air, 4x4, extendahoe, ride control, pilot controls. I love the pilot controls, as I actually run an excavator most of the time, so the pilot controls are natural for me. The 4x4 is worth it's weight in gold, as is the extendahoe. It's not hard to get used to the extra reach, but is hard to get used to not having it when you get on a machine without it. The ride control is great, not only for roading, but just on a rough jobsite it makes a world of difference. I've got about 1500 hours on the Super M now, and (knock on wood) have had absolutely no problems out of it. I never had it head to head with my Super L, but I think it'll out dig it, and that's saying a lot to me.

Now, we did have a 580 M, Open ROPS, 4x4 extendahoe that we bought in 2006 I think. It came off of the Case rental fleet, so I don't know if it was turned down or anything, but I was never impressed with it. The 580 Super K would out dig and out lift it, and the Super L and Super M would blow it away. You could park it side by side with any of them, and tell it was a lighter machine. I think they made a lighter version of the 580 when they did away with the 480, and just made it the "plain" letter instead of a super. We actually got so much mud packed up in the rear end of it once, that we had to pull the back tires off, and clean the mud out because it wouldn't pull itself. Pretty sad when it wouldn't go, but the 2 wheel drive Super K just kept wallering through the same mud, bringing rock to my gravel box. It also seemed like the straight M got a lot of slack in the pins and bushings on the back end awful soon. Even greasing it everyday.

Well, Seems I wrote a book, but I think I pretty well covered everything I can think of. We've never replaced a motor in any of them over the years, I don't remember any transmission problems, we did shell out a rear end in one of the D's and also an E, but no telling what was done to cause that. That was back in the "pipeline" days, and these machines took a LOT of punishment. As of yet, havn't cracked or broken one of the ductile Iron booms, and we dig a LOT of rock. I'll use an excavator whenever possible, but we work a lot of places you just can't get a PC200 or larger into. I've laid 8" ductile Iron sewer and set precast manholes with my Super M. I don't recommend it, but it can be done...

 

[Randy88]

Handtpipeline, thanks for the info, now for a few questions, I was told yesterday that the ductile iron booms and components are no more, even on the new machines, and won't be available on new parts for older machines, something about cost to manufacturer or availabilty, the shop forman I talked to wasn't sure the exact reason but his spin on the whole scenerio was a totally different view than anyone has given me. His concern about ductile iron booms and components was shortly none of those will be ductile iron and replacement parts were to be steel of some sort, even the new machines made today they are back to a steel something like years gone by, now armed with that info, he recommended to go to a good used D or E model, because he wasn't sure how steel replacement parts would do with a ductile iron setup, his conscern was that not even aftermarket parts would be able to get ductile iron and until things sort themselves out maybe hold off on the newer untis with ductlle iron on them. Now for his opinion on the backhoe selection, first off until we know how much or how little use we're going to have for one, buy a tried and true design and then decide weather to replace an engine or overhaul one. I sat and listened to his reasoning and its as follows, now remember he's a die hard case man, long before cummins ever came out, a case engine can be overhauled, one sleeve and piston at a time if need be if a vavle dropped or whatever happened, parts are cheaper and readily available, and if worst case severio an entire engine was needed a cummins could be put in at that time, but also there are a lot of case engines sitting around that could be bought really cheap to replace the case engine. I sat and listened to what he said and then he started in on the K models, his opinion wasn't the highest on those machines at all, there were two years in there to avoid altogether, they have an entirely different transmission in them and they were a lemon and no way to update or swap them out, he would look up the years for me if I ever looked at a k model. He wasn't at all impressed with the K he claimed they had plenty of problems with its growing pains and to basically avoid them unless we planned on upgrading it shortly to a newer model, he also complained about the visability with the two cylinders on the D or E but those can be overcome a lot faster than some of the newer machines problems can, also the booms can be repaired not replaced and he wasn't sure what the replacement parts would be for a upgraded booms, but he said very few ever were repalced, but at the same time its man made and his luck was something would happen, slide off a truck or a ditch and bend it or some other strange deal and yes there are salvage yards but whats the price going to be if aftermarket might be able to reproduce ductile iron? He hammered away a long time on the uncertainty of ductile iron it was his biggest hangup on the whole deal, as he said, steel isn't a strong enough replacement for ductile iron nor ever would be.

Different shop forman differernt shop, not quite the same story but a lot of complaints about the K model and certain years and updates or upgrades that didn't pan out, his opinion of the K was and unevolved child that never grew up unitl they moved onto the next model, too many updates and too many different changes to get the machine to work and way too many mistakes on case's part for any model and a lot of operator complaints, he at the same time liked the D and E models and had no real complaints about any of those models, sure they are older technology but they worked and got the job done, he wasn't too hung up on the pumps and brakes differences and he compared them to those on the K and its many differences and things that didn't work at all and the slow and jerky hydraulics, now that said as they say was I being fed a line or is there truth in what I was told? Nobody has ever said anything about ductile iron or its phase out of the industry, the first guy thought it was with the supplier and it wasn't an option anymore for anyone, the second guy wasn't sure why the reason for it being gone but the new machines have no ductile iron on them or shortly anyhow they wouldn't have any, I was told both ways, any ideas?????

As they say before I started I knew nothing about backhoes and now after some research I find I know even less than I did before I started and my wife said, yea but throw some money into the equation and your learining curve will go up considerably very quickly and how you should have done it instead of how you did do it.

Thanks for the imput and keep it coming I need all the help I can get.

 

[CMSMOKE]

Randy, I've operated every model Caes backhoe from 1960's era 530 to 2003 580M. I put on well over 1000 hrs./year on many. I am now out of excavating on a full time scale, but I'm looking for a machine to do occasional work. The first generation 580K is what I'm after. It has the same tried and true power shuttle that has beeen used on 580B,C,D and E models. The transaxle is essentially the same as well. The brakes were updated on the K. The hydraulics were way ahead of the previous models. Yes, L,M, and new N series are fast, but there are alot more electronics, switches and higher priced parts on them. In my opinion the K was the first of the new high production machines and will still run with a new one if everything is up to par. You don't need a 4X4 or extendahoe. Sure it is nice to have, but you could put a set of chains on the few times you may have to put it in deep mud. Extendahoe is nice as far as extra set up or deep trenching. You use your excavator for deep stuff anyway. In my opinon you pay extra for 4X4 and etendaoe in the begining and you pay for it each and every day in tire wear, yard damage and the annoying extra slop in the extendhoe. The cummins engines in the E models and newer are bulletproof. I ran a 580k to 12,300 hrs. and never had a valve cover off. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DGODGR]

Randy, my understanding about the ductile iron is that it is SOFTER than steel and will flex some instead of cracking. I'm not too sure why you are concerned about the ductile iron booms. I don't recall ever hearing of one failing. I doubt that you will have to replace one. As far as Case eliminating ductile booms I think they will have parts for while as I think the same boom is used through the M series. I still think that L series in Hiawatha is your best bet.

 

[bowen]

HA! 4X4 or not. Extended hoe or not.
Mine has neither and I would rarely use either. It may be like a 4 wheel drive truck.
Some folks are in the mud 1 time a year maybe...not worth the extra money.
BUT when you get in that real jam, these things are nice.
I will not be digging any real deep holes, but at rare times a little extra reach would be nice.
Here on the farm and in the yard I like the smooth tires on the front to prevent yard damage.
I say buy these things ONLY if your situation requires it.

 

[alrman]

The ductile booms do break - for the many, many thousands that are in service, a few breaks - don't even count as a percentage for CNH.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?20197-Cracked-cast-boom-on-590SM

Re: fabricated booms - most older models I have seen have had welding repairs done to them & have seen more than a few in 2 pieces.

 

[bowen]

If you read the manual it says to NOT WELD ANY CAST IRON PARTS ON THESE MACHINES....

 

[Randy88]

DGODGR, what do you think a bid shoud be on the L in Hiawatha? I"ve been looking on the internet for prior sales and they range anywhere from 15-24K, I"m going to a sale today to watch a backhoe sell and see just how much it brings, not really interested by it is close by and was curious as to what things are bringing, I might have to get our of this area completely to buy anything, the prices here are beyond crazy, farmers have so much money they will pay anything, I was told a M machine sold a week ago for 39K and several farmers were after it and one ended up with it, didn't surprise me at all, with 10K land and rent at or over 500 per acre, junk sells for a fortune, there is a D model up for sale and its predicted to sell for almost 14k, we'll see, I've already talked to several farmers who are after that L at hiawatha and they have way deeper pockets than I do.

As for the farmers K he bought it used at an auction, he puts about 20 hours per year on it and has had it maybe 5 years, its supposed to have something like 4600 hours on it and most of if not all the stuff needing fixing is from whoever owned it before him, this guy is also after the L at hiawatha, I haven't had time to go see it yet, we're trying to do as many jobs before freeze up as possilbe but next week sometime I"ll at least get down there to look, don't thiink it'll do me much good though by the sounds of it, this farmer is also talking about auctions further from home to update his K, he's after a M model but will take a L if its nicer than his K, I have no idea how anyone who puts so few of hours can justify anything like that but when you've got the cash, justification has nothing to do with it, its more of a toy than a machine to use anyhow and there are a lot of them like it out there.

CMSMOKE, thanks for the imput, did you ever work with a 88 or 89 model K, the service guy was thinking those were the years they did a transmission change and had a lot of problems but before I'd buy one he'd look up the serial numbers for me to tell me for sure, something about a completely different shuttle, transmission, rearend that caused problems and were not any good and couldn't be updated due to the design, any ideas on that? I'd have to agree about the 4x4, for me I'd just take my mid sized excavator instead, I really don't plan on using the bucket much anything but to shove the hole shut and do some backfilling on tile trenches, as for loading and hauling anything with the bucket its not my intention, I've got plenty of other machines to do those types of tasks with instead that would do a lot better job, I"ve run both 2w drive and also 4x4 and for what I do, I'd never really use the 4x4, also I sold my 4x4 pickups and went back to 2wd actual trucks and love them, they are big enough to actually do something with like pull air brake tag trailers. I found over the years for tiling I had to park my nice 4x4 pickup in the farmers yard anyhow and use my light 4 wheeler to get around at the farm and chase fittings and things, the gas cost to drive my pickups was killing me. To me the biggest thing is a cab, I don't care about air conditioning much, but when its cold out in the spring and fall and my hands, feet and body are cold I want heat and a cab to get out of the wind at least, anymore if it doens't have a cab on it I won't operate anything when its cold out that doens't, I've been there and done that long enough, that is the single biggest thing to me, way above and beyond 4x4 or extendahoe or any operating designs or controls.

Its looking to me like this winter will be spent trying to buy something further from home or privatley from someone, I've called on a few K's in that 14-16K range and most were sold already.

 

[DGODGR]

DGODGR, what do you think a bid shoud be on the L in Hiawatha? I"ve been looking on the internet for prior sales and they range anywhere from 15-24K, I"m going to a sale today to watch a backhoe sell and see just how much it brings, not really interested by it is close by and was curious as to what things are bringing, I might have to get our of this area completely to buy anything, the prices here are beyond crazy, farmers have so much money they will pay anything, I was told a M machine sold a week ago for 39K and several farmers were after it and one ended up with it, didn't surprise me at all, with 10K land and rent at or over 500 per acre, junk sells for a fortune, there is a D model up for sale and its predicted to sell for almost 14k, we'll see, I've already talked to several farmers who are after that L at hiawatha and they have way deeper pockets than I do.

First of all, try not to worry too much about what others are going to bid. It's good that you are doing your research to find what these things might be worth. Use this info and, more importantly, what budget constraints you have established to come up with a price that works for you. Since this is a sealed bid auction no one knows what the other person is bidding. It will be harder for people to get into, what I call, "auction fever" (when two or more people get fixed on an item and bid beyond it's real value-sometimes as much or more as a new item) so it may go for a more realistic price. The downside is that it may be harder to "steal it" (when nobody is willing to pay much, if anything, for it and you swoop in and buy it way below true value) since nobody knows how bad the next guy wants it. Suffice it to say that you have just as much chance to win the bid as the next guy. You had said that it is important to get a amchine at a price that, if you decide to bail, you won't get burned too bad when you unload the machine. Go to Ritchie Brothers (you'll have to register) and find auction results on whatever you are looking to buy(in this case the L series 580). This price, if it fits your budget, is a pretty safe bet that you will be able to unload it if you so decide. If this number is above your budget, use your budget number and if you get it...great. If not, keep shopping. Remember, this one is not the only one. The other advantage to this type of auction is that you don't have to be there during the auction. Check out the machine at your convienience. Send in, or deliver, your bid before the deadline. Most of the time you don't have to be present at the opening (check the specific rules for this auction).

As for the farmers K he bought it used at an auction, he puts about 20 hours per year on it and has had it maybe 5 years, its supposed to have something like 4600 hours on it and most of if not all the stuff needing fixing is from whoever owned it before him, this guy is also after the L at hiawatha, I haven't had time to go see it yet, we're trying to do as many jobs before freeze up as possilbe but next week sometime I"ll at least get down there to look, don't thiink it'll do me much good though by the sounds of it, this farmer is also talking about auctions further from home to update his K, he's after a M model but will take a L if its nicer than his K, I have no idea how anyone who puts so few of hours can justify anything like that but when you've got the cash, justification has nothing to do with it, its more of a toy than a machine to use anyhow and there are a lot of them like it out there.

It does not matter who was neglecting the maintenance. It only matters wether, or not, the issues created by said neglect have been rectified (it doesn't sound like it) or if you can get it at a really good price, and are willing to fix it back up. The problem here is that it is very easy to spend more fixing a machine than it is to spend more up front for a machine that does not need fixing. An example of this is if you were to "part a machine together" (buy all parts individually) vs buy a complete machine. You would probably spend 6-700% more and you still have to assemble it.

CMSMOKE, thanks for the imput, did you ever work with a 88 or 89 model K, the service guy was thinking those were the years they did a transmission change and had a lot of problems but before I'd buy one he'd look up the serial numbers for me to tell me for sure, something about a completely different shuttle, transmission, rearend that caused problems and were not any good and couldn't be updated due to the design, any ideas on that? I'd have to agree about the 4x4, for me I'd just take my mid sized excavator instead, I really don't plan on using the bucket much anything but to shove the hole shut and do some backfilling on tile trenches, as for loading and hauling anything with the bucket its not my intention, I've got plenty of other machines to do those types of tasks with instead that would do a lot better job, I"ve run both 2w drive and also 4x4 and for what I do, I'd never really use the 4x4, also I sold my 4x4 pickups and went back to 2wd actual trucks and love them, they are big enough to actually do something with like pull air brake tag trailers. I found over the years for tiling I had to park my nice 4x4 pickup in the farmers yard anyhow and use my light 4 wheeler to get around at the farm and chase fittings and things, the gas cost to drive my pickups was killing me. To me the biggest thing is a cab, I don't care about air conditioning much, but when its cold out in the spring and fall and my hands, feet and body are cold I want heat and a cab to get out of the wind at least, anymore if it doens't have a cab on it I won't operate anything when its cold out that doens't, I've been there and done that long enough, that is the single biggest thing to me, way above and beyond 4x4 or extendahoe or any operating designs or controls.

Its looking to me like this winter will be spent trying to buy something further from home or privatley from someone, I've called on a few K's in that 14-16K range and most were sold already.

I learned on 2WD backhoes and used one (during a flood/emergency situation) 4x4 machine until I bought my own. So it was about 10 years of 2wd machine use. Most who are advocating against 4x4 are seem to suggest that getting thhrough mud is the only added benefit to this feature. This is simply not the case and many other advantages exist. I will list some as I see them.
1) Will help give the machine better over all balance. Most hoes have a rearward weight bias which can make the front bucket too light to work well, make the machine road poorly, and make it more dificult to feel grade changes. Chin weight and 4-in-1 loader buckets will also benefit balance. Case has an "over center" design and many will say that this resolves many balance issues. I think it helps but they are still too light up front IMO.
2) You will climb, and descend, steeper grades. Yes, I said descend. When 4x4 is engaged braking is transfered to the front through the drivetrain.
3) You will be able to push more dirt and, with the right operators, will experience less tire wear. I do not like Cases 4x4 system as much as others. IMO there is too much binding when turning. IMO this causes premature tire wear up front. This could be because the front wheels are so small and do more revolutions per mile or at least it could add to the issue. I don't like the smaller front wheels for a few reasons, tire wear being one of them.
You have said that you won't need 4x4, or extendahoe, because you have other machines that can do the work you think those features are designed for or benefit. I'm sure this is true but the main benefit of a backhoe is the versatility, and these things add to that. Furthermore, you have said that you want a TLB so that you can road instead of haul when working close by. Said features will increase the opportunities that you can take advantage of that. This is a new venture for you and your son so don't tie one hand behind your back by reducing the versatility of the machine. This will only serve to reduce the job opportunities. Set yourself up to succeed. The cost of these items, especially on a used machine, are nominal when looking at the big picture.
Other brands may offer similar opportunities as well. The series I & series II Cat backhoes have the same boom design as the E series Case but are, IMO, much superior machines in every respect, including support. I would recommend a newer machine, you may even consider a B model Cat, but I suggested the older ones do to there similarity to the Case (which you seemed to gravitate toward) and low price do to there age.
BTW, if I had a choice, I would not buy a TLB that did not have 4x4, extendable dipper, and a cab with A/C.