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New vs. Used

7star

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Hi everyone, I have been reading your forum for the past couple of months and enjoy all the information I have gained. I am looking for an excavator of the 36,000 lb size for pad sites, clearing, retention ponds, type work. I have heard alot of pros and cons of buying new vs used. I am new to heavy equipment and would like to open this can of worms with you good folk. The used ones I am considering have 3-5000 hours on them. Please give me some of your expertise, experience, and insight in buying used excavators of this size. I guess more to the point, on the average, how dependable are used machines with this number of hours? I am more worried about down time. thanks for you help. 7Star
 
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CascadeScaper

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We went through the same thing when we purchased our 312. We looked at used prices (for Cat, anyway) and decided that new was a better purchase for us. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with used equipment. I wouldn't say it's a gamble buying used, but you definately could be buying a machine that has had problems in the past or was neglected as far as maintenance goes, there's really no way to tell. The only neglect you could notice is how beat up the machine is, doing a fluid analysis, finding a maintenance log for the machine. There's really no way to know how often the air filters were changed, how often the fluids were changed, how often the machine was greased. It really is a guessing game at some point. In the 3-5,000 hour range, if maintained very well, you shouldn't have any problems. The key is maintenance. These machines will easily run to 8-10,000 hours without a huge problem. However, when you get to that point, they do need overhauls that are spendy, but not nearly as costly as replacing a new engine or something along those lines. But, if you can afford to buy new, there really isn't anything wrong with that either as long as you have enough business to support a new equipment payment. There's days I wonder why we bought new, we could have settled for something with a couple thousand hours, but when you buy Cat a 312 with 2,000 hours it's about $90-100K and we bought a brand new 312CL the way we wanted for $135K before tax.
 
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rino1494

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The bottom line when buying new equipment is how much it will get used. There is no sense in spending more money on payments than what the machine will make you. There is no nothing wrong with buying used as long as it was maintained. Ask for maintenance records and just look over the machine. Just by looking at a machine, you can tell if the person took care of it.

Just like cascade said, they have no problem running 10,000 hrs. When they get up that high, repairs will get costly. For example... pumps, finals, motors, swing motors, cylinders, etc...
 

7star

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thanks

Thanks Cascade and Rino for your replies. I was wondering how long these machines typically go for before needing major repairs. I've heard anywhere from 5000-8000 hours. Do you know anything about some of these European machines making their way over here? There is a 2002 Komatsu PC160 up in Boston someone is trying to sell me for 72K (4500 hours) but I am very skeptical of a machine out of Europe. I am presuming that you guys would think that a machine with a couple thousand hours for about 1/2 the cost of new would be worth buying as far as repairs, breakdowns... assuming well maintained and oil analysis is good? 7star
 

digger242j

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Do you know anything about some of these European machines making their way over here?

Do a search here for the term "gray market", or (since both spellings are accepted, but you need to be very literal with computers, cause they're not too smart), "grey market". We've talked about that subject a lot. It's something to be aware of when you're shopping...
 

CascadeScaper

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Stay away from grey market, they could create more problems then they're worth. With that said, there are Komatsu's that were built for sale in the US and they're fine machines. Grey market machines sometimes don't have the same parts availability and that's what can cause you trouble. You'd think they'd build the machines identical whether they're built for an overseas market or here in the US but sometimes that just isn't the case.

As for 4500 hours, it's getting up there. At some point the undercarriage was already done or it will need to be done. 4500 hours isn't worn out, but you will start seeing repairs. The finals will be fine, swing bearings might need to be re-done, the swing motor should be okay, cylinders should be good, pumps are fine. 4500 hours is about the midpoint, anywhere after that you could see component failure. You're right, saving about half the cost of a new machine on one about halfway worn out is about right, but it really comes down to downtime. When we bought our 312 we had a $55K contract signed 4 days before our machine was delivered, we had a massive deadline that we just barely made as it was. If we would have bought a used machine and it broke down costing us a few days time we wouldn't have made the deadline. Sometimes buying new makes sense, but there is absoutely nothing wrong with buying used.
 
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7star

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grey market question

As usual you guys make me think and bring up another question. I assumed that the European machine I was looking at was not a grey market because it had a US model number (komatsu PC160). Is this not a good assumption? Even if it has a US model number, can it still be a European grey market? 7star
 

tylermckee

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I think the model numbers generally stay the same, if you are totally unsure if it is a grey market machine get the serial number. good indicator of it beeing a GMM is everything in the wrong language. What kind of price range are you looking at? company i work for has a hyundai 160 lcd-7 (has a blade) and the damn thing digs about like a 200 size machine, and its pretty fast when you run it in the highest work/power modes. Hyundai is a bit cheaper than all the other big brands, not to mention parts are much cheaper as well. We have been very impressed with ours so far.
 

Steve Frazier

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Grey market machines are machines imported to this country that are not built to specification for sale in this country. There are foreign manufacturers that sell US spec machines here, these are fine, but when you get a machine that is not planned to be sold here it can be a nightmare. I owned a JD 310 that was grey market and had to wait about 2 weeks for parts all the time. That's after spending hours trying to find the part number!

By the way....Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums!!:drinkup
 

Wulf

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7star said:
As usual you guys make me think and bring up another question. I assumed that the European machine I was looking at was not a grey market because it had a US model number (komatsu PC160). Is this not a good assumption? Even if it has a US model number, can it still be a European grey market? 7star

The PC160LC-7 was marketed through the Komatsu America dealer network so its unlikley to be gray/grey.
If the serial number has a 'K' prefix it is built in England if the serial number is numeric only it was built in Japan. Major components are identical.
Komatsu is the 'Sony' of hydraulic excavators and reliability is legendary:yup
 

Ford LT-9000

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If the Komatsu has been repainted Yellow then be aware it maybe a grey market machine. As for Komatsu itself I don't know if you really want one they are okay I would rather have a Deere or Hitachi over a Komatsu.

If I was going to buy a Komatsu it would be brandnew then you know what you got. They are kinda like Freightliner trucks you can get them a little cheaper than the rest.

Don't rush into buying a machine make sure you check it over well. If its been cleaned up really good be aware of it maybe a POS with a 5 gallon rebuild. Find out who owned the machine before you and how many owners has owned the machine.
 

CascadeScaper

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Honestly, machines with old paint is the best way to go when buying used. If they've been repainted, take a little closer look, usually they're trying to hide something. That isn't always true though, I know a lot of Cat certified used equipment is repainted for marketing purposes, but it's a fact that Caterpillar owners take serious pride in how their equipment looks :bouncegri
 

7star

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price range

tylermckee said:
What kind of price range are you looking at? .

I am looking at under 150K for new and under 75K for a good used machine. If I could get a good year or two out of a good used machine I would prefer a used one. I am just not sure which is my best option. I know it depends on my needs, use, and finances, but I am just not sure about used machines. I figure they are alot like used cars but I could be wrong about that analogy. 7star
 

Wawrecker

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Most gray market machines have parts and service availability through your local dealer. Stay away from gray market Cats and Kobelcos-Nightmare!
 

7star

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Welcome

Steve Frazier said:
By the way....Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums!!:drinkup

Thanks for the welcome, I really enjoy the enthusiasm and information. 7star
 

DKinWA

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I'd also ask this same question of your CPA or accountant. Tax advantages aren't always obvious, but they definitely should be weighed in your decision when spending the kind of money you're looking at.
 

Jeff D.

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DKinWA said:
I'd also ask this same question of your CPA or accountant. Tax advantages aren't always obvious, but they definitely should be weighed in your decision when spending the kind of money you're looking at.

Last year I'd bought a new trailer and a used dump truck. If I remember correctly the tax person said that "New" equipment could be depreciated in as little as one year, but "Used" needed to be depreciated as per normal(3-5years)due to a new tax law change for businesses. It sounded as if it was implimented to help spur "new" purchases by businesses for more economic growth.

Don't know if it was a one year change only, or if it's still applicable.

Like DKinWA says, it's worth checking with an accountant.:thumbsup
 

Jeff D.

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Electra_Glide said:
Hmmmm....and everybody says there's no money in trucking...:rolleyes:

Joe

Joe, There isn't!!:confused:

But if you live like a miserly little hermit you can squirrel away some of the few pennies you do get, for a rainy day.:bouncegri
 
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