I was curious as to whether anyone has any experience of oil sampling (whoever the lab may be) actually providing prior warning or evidence of abnormal system condition... excluding failure related to glycol or fuel dilution in an engine.
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Oil Sampling - any success stories?
- Thread starter Wulf
- Start date
CGSI
Active Member
Wulf said:
Oil sampling is just like any other tool. if you use it properly and trend the results you cam maximize the equipment use and extend major component lifetime by a great deal. If all you want to use it for is to extend the change interval of fluids then it is a value but you miss the real benefits IMO
Squizzy246B
Administrator
CGSI said:
Dead right. Before starting my own business I was conducting machinery failure analysis, mainly on diesel engines. The amount of times that I saw a worrying trend in the oil sample results that nobody picked up (prior to failure) was amazing. 1 sample doesn't really tell you a lot. You need a series of tests (history) over a period so you can look at trends and even then you need some knowledge to make sense of the results. Different makes of engine have different characteristics. An oil sample taken today is not going to tell you about the coolant contamination of tomorrow. A useful tool but not the be all and end all.
Probably the best and most conclusive thing an oil sample will tell you is fuel dilution, should it be occuring. This can save you from a crankcase explosion which is not a pretty thing to happen.
CGSI
Active Member
Squizzy246B said:
Sqizzy
Back when I ran 18 wheelers my trended oil analysis showed the babbit wear in the bearings progessivley and when we tore it down at 650,000 for a liner o ring leaking my mechanic looked at the graph and told me he would bet before he tore it down that those bearings were still at least 25%. He was wrong... still at 35%. pretty good evaluation from the outside looking in. by the way, the last 2 oil samples is what told him we had a small coolant contamination issue that was too small to show in mechanical ways. but by fixing the o rings in that cylinder the motor was still running strong when i sold it with 943,000 on the clock. since we had it down we did roll in a new set of bearings anyway.
9420pullpan
Senior Member
i know that we do it and i know that it has saved them money in the past.
Shortly after I'd bought my Mack(around 30k miles)the engine devoloped a slight knocking sound.The dealer decided to do an oil sample to see what would show up.That showed nothing.They said to keep running it.After another month I decided to do another sample,as it was driving me nuts.It still showed nothing abnormal.I wasn't pleased with that,and after some prodding the dealer brought it in,and said they pulled it down and couldn't find anything,so again I kept running it.But the noise kept getting worse until I'd had enough.They pulled it down again(or maybe the first REAL time)and found 2or3 cam lobes worn down,with their corresponding rollers seized.
I don't know why it didn't show up in the samples,but here they are after the noise had started.
I'd always felt oil samples were a good predicter,but now I more skeptical.
I don't know why it didn't show up in the samples,but here they are after the noise had started.
I'd always felt oil samples were a good predicter,but now I more skeptical.
Attachments
Orchard Ex
Super Moderator
What companies do you use and where do you buy your sampling kits? What is the cost of each kit/analysis.
FWIW - I've used a company called AOA in the past for airplane engines - looking to compare costs...
FWIW - I've used a company called AOA in the past for airplane engines - looking to compare costs...
CGSI
Active Member
The co. I use(when I do them) is called "Monitor".It's a division of Fleetguard(I think they also make filters?)
They're at www.fleetguard.com
I have them done at the business that does my servicing.They do sell them to people to do on their own too.I think it runs about $20,and comes with two small plastic containers.One for the oil,the other just in case the first leaks.Then you just send it in the mail to them.
You can get your results online in a few days or/and they send them too you.
They're at www.fleetguard.com
I have them done at the business that does my servicing.They do sell them to people to do on their own too.I think it runs about $20,and comes with two small plastic containers.One for the oil,the other just in case the first leaks.Then you just send it in the mail to them.
You can get your results online in a few days or/and they send them too you.
surfer-joe
Senior Member
I can't tell how many hours you have on each sample, but a sample with few hours on it doesn't tell much. A longer trend of samples at 250 hours would do better. It's unfortunate you did not perform a base sample when you first purchased your rig. That would have given you a starting point to compare with. Another base sample everyone should have in their files is a base sample on the new oil you have just purchased. It serves the same purpose as an initial sample on new or used equipment.
That said, the iron in the 2nd sample is high enough to have made me suspicious and the silicon level is right on the edge where I would have had the boys start looking for induction leaks of other sources of silicon contamination. With a tapping noise, and the higher than normal iron reading, I would have opened the engine up. The cam lobes and rollers in that Mack evidently were not chrome plated as the chrome levels shown do not indicate a bit of it, not even from ring wear.
As others have noted, trends from a long period of samples really tell most of the story, but each individual sample also tells its own tale and once in a while you will see a sudden fuel dilution or glycol level, or a high reading elsewhere that indicates it needs immediate attention. That's where oil samples pay their way, indicating the sudden and potential catastrophic failures that are so expensive in terms of downtime, lost production, and repair or replacement cost.
Oil samples cost somewhere between 7 to 20 dollars each, depending if you buy sample packs in bulk or individually. I can not recommend them enough. However, even if a analysis from the sample lab comes with an "OK." You still need to sit back and reflect on how your equipment is used, where it's being used at, and who is operating it. There are so many things to consider beyond just the sample itself, and the more you know about all these things, the better decision you can make on a need to take action or let it slide.
That said, the iron in the 2nd sample is high enough to have made me suspicious and the silicon level is right on the edge where I would have had the boys start looking for induction leaks of other sources of silicon contamination. With a tapping noise, and the higher than normal iron reading, I would have opened the engine up. The cam lobes and rollers in that Mack evidently were not chrome plated as the chrome levels shown do not indicate a bit of it, not even from ring wear.
As others have noted, trends from a long period of samples really tell most of the story, but each individual sample also tells its own tale and once in a while you will see a sudden fuel dilution or glycol level, or a high reading elsewhere that indicates it needs immediate attention. That's where oil samples pay their way, indicating the sudden and potential catastrophic failures that are so expensive in terms of downtime, lost production, and repair or replacement cost.
Oil samples cost somewhere between 7 to 20 dollars each, depending if you buy sample packs in bulk or individually. I can not recommend them enough. However, even if a analysis from the sample lab comes with an "OK." You still need to sit back and reflect on how your equipment is used, where it's being used at, and who is operating it. There are so many things to consider beyond just the sample itself, and the more you know about all these things, the better decision you can make on a need to take action or let it slide.
roddyo
Senior Member
AtlasRob
Senior Member
NOTE ! I am in UK. The last batch of 20 from Terex cost me £8 @ Cardboard packing tube with small plastic screw top sample jar and sheet of paper/ Take sample fill in paperwork, where sample is from, oil type, unit type, oil hours etc. Pop it in the post and get the results back within a week.
Thanks for the reply. I myself believe in do everything possiable to keep the machines running in as good as condition as possible. That is if I were the owner of the company. Downtime = low profits or no profit in the end. Can't work if you machine isn't working for you. Absolutely agree on making sure your guys are doing there part in maintaining the equipment for you, and potential problems before they become bigger.:usa:thumbsup
CM1995
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Rob is that 8 pounds (don't have that symbol on my keyboard
) total for 20 bottles and the sample results or 8 pounds each? I drop mine off at the local Cat house, if it goes into the mail it takes forever due to the "hazardous materials" rules. If I drop a sample off and ask for a rush I can get the results in 24-48 hours. The best part about this particular service is email results in PDF format sent to me, the office and my foreman.
We sample every 250 HR service, that includes coolant, finals, hyd, - even if it is not time to change the fluid.