Sum Foters

[Wulf]

Most people seemed to find that the Cats would go in further than the 'Kummagutsas' but wouldn't come back out again...

Hi Deas, Putting classics like D9G and D5B aside for a moment. I have heard from the Alberta oilsand tailings applications (the guys with the rads on the roof that we see submerged a lot) that when in heavy going that the Komatsu can back up out of trouble a whole lot better than the high drive.

 

[Deas Plant]

Not Surprised

Hi, Wulf.
Thanks for that little bit of information. With my past experience and observations of Cat Hi-sprocket dozers, I'm not surprised. I have noticed that of all the hi-sprocket models that I have been on so far, only the D8L, D9L, the 84W D10's and the D11N and R seem to be anything like capable of really putting their grunt on the ground in the same way that the D8H and K and the D9G and H - and the D5B - would. This has got to be due to poor front/rear balance, at least in part.

I ran a D10R for several hours about 15 months ago and I was truly impressed with its ability to put its grunt on the ground - just not favourably impressed, if you get my drift. I told the regular operator at the time that the old D5B would 'dump' all over the D10R in that respect. He couldn't see it at the time, even after I had explained to him exactly what I was talking about. He came back to me a week later and said that he could now see what I meant. Then, a couple of months later, he got to run the D5B for 4 days. THAT gave him a whole new understanding of the situation.

It's all very well having big mobs of horsepower and weight but it's almost as much use as an udder on a chook if you can't get that power on the ground, translated into traction. And that applies to backing up as much as pushing forward. I was really impressed with the way the D9L would back up steep slopes as well as the way it pushed but it's one of a small number of the hi-sprockets that have impressed me in that regard.

 

[LDK]

Hi, NeilD.
You realise, of course, that you have now officially put your foot in your mouth, that you will now have to come up with 'foters' of the beast when it arrives. I would reckon that Nick Drew would like to see'em too.

It is interesting that you say the D65 is regarded as the better wet area dozer. Right from the earliest times that I had anything to do with LGP/swamp dozers, it was pretty generally thought that the 'Kummagutsas' were better that the equivalent Cats. Most people seemed to find that the Cats would go in further than the 'Kummagutsas' but wouldn't come back out again. This seemed to apply to both LGP track shoes and the pyramid- or triangle-shaped 'swamp' track shoes.

Having said that, I have vivid memories of one operator on a D5B 'swampy' leaving eveything in his wake for dead working in a swamp area sub-division near Newcastle, New South Wales, about 20 years ago. I still think that particular dozer had 'Jesus boots' fitted to it.

Best of luck with your new toy.

Hello Deas
I ran a 5B LGP for 6 months in the mid to late 70's (memory?) and it was a nice tractor, one problem that it and others that I ran across had was that the fenders over the tracks used to come loose a lot or break. I think that was the first LGP I ever ran, they were not as common then as they are now.
I would love to hear from anyone that had the chance to run a D8R LGP, I never have but the standard 8R has allways impressed me in bad ground.

 

[Deas Plant]

D5b.

Hi, LDK.
I have never run a D5B LGP, only the wide guage, standard track shoe machine that I currently operate, although this one would take LGP shoes. I have had no problem with fenders deciding to stay behind anywhere while the machine goes on without them. However, this machine - series 44X - does have the ROPS brackets under the fenders too and that might be the difference. The machine was originally a Saudi Arabian oilfield dozer with no canopy of any sort and no ripper, just a 'bobtail' dozer with drawbar. It probably spent most of its life over there chasing sand dunes across the landscape.

It was fitted with a ripper and a 'sortuva' ROPS at the request of the current owner, for whom I work, and has done a little more than round up sand dunes in the past 4 years. I have done quite a few jobs that gave it a bit of a work-out, including spreading shale fill from 10 - 13 semi-trailer tip trucks and/or truck and dog trailer tipper combinations doing 7 - 8 loads a day for 3 months. Average, 20 - 24 cubic metres per load. It loved it.

I ran a Kummagutsa D65P 'swampy' with a logging winch on the rear for a while in late 1996. It went well but had a bit of a problem one day when I WASN'T operating it. The operator at the time was barreling backwards in 3rd gear whilst 'perving' on a couple of good-looking sorts walking down the road about 20 metres away. He was so engrossed in his perving that he didn't notice the left track 'unzip' when the master link bolts let go until he had left it behind by about 5 metres and was running on the bare track rollers. That raised some caustic comments from the boss, who wasn't known at the best of times for his complimentary attitude.

 

[LDK]

Brackets

Hi, LDK.
I have never run a D5B LGP, only the wide guage, standard track shoe machine that I currently operate, although this one would take LGP shoes. I have had no problem with fenders deciding to stay behind anywhere while the machine goes on without them. However, this machine - series 44X - does have the ROPS brackets under the fenders too and that might be the difference. The machine was originally a Saudi Arabian oilfield dozer with no canopy of any sort and no ripper, just a 'bobtail' dozer with drawbar. It probably spent most of its life over there chasing sand dunes across the landscape.

It was fitted with a ripper and a 'sortuva' ROPS at the request of the current owner, for whom I work, and has done a little more than round up sand dunes in the past 4 years. I have done quite a few jobs that gave it a bit of a work-out, including spreading shale fill from 10 - 13 semi-trailer tip trucks and/or truck and dog trailer tipper combinations doing 7 - 8 loads a day for 3 months. Average, 20 - 24 cubic metres per load. It loved it.

I ran a Kummagutsa D65P 'swampy' with a logging winch on the rear for a while in late 1996. It went well but had a bit of a problem one day when I WASN'T operating it. The operator at the time was barreling backwards in 3rd gear whilst 'perving' on a couple of good-looking sorts walking down the road about 20 metres away. He was so engrossed in his perving that he didn't notice the left track 'unzip' when the master link bolts let go until he had left it behind by about 5 metres and was running on the bare track rollers. That raised some caustic comments from the boss, who wasn't known at the best of times for his complimentary attitude.

Hey Deas,
We were not lucky enough then to have the rops cabs but you are on the money as far as the brackets go because on the 5 that I was on and the others I saw around at that time, had extra brackets welded in as a remedy. The tin sheds that we used to get as cabs back then would also suffer when them fenders started to flap.
I liked the 65P but the difference between that and the 65PX, is like night and day. I might be sticking my neck out here but I reckon that the 65PX model is the best or most enjoyable dozer I have been on in recent years.

 

[Neil D]

Hi Deas
Yea,I am finally gonna have to figure out this computer lark as to how to stick up photos.
Your comment that Komatsu were always known for being better in the swamps is interesting, I have to say that I do not have the experience on dozers you guys have but I always thought the oval track lgp Cats were pretty close. After all the nearest Komatsu's were that bit more powerfull which of course made all the difference,I have seen oval track Cats working in conditions I have never seen high drives in. The high drives suffer from the same problem as Fiat-Allis FD175's,ours had too heavy a blade and was useless in soft conditions until I put a counterweight on the back.
The other problem I hear high drive operators complaining about are problems with the masterlinks tearing apart.
Having driven a 65EX I agree with LDK from an operators point of view but to buy a secondhand one is entirely a different matter,after 12000 hours they start to give serious trouble with the transmissions etc
Neil

 

[LDK]

Hi Deas
Yea,I am finally gonna have to figure out this computer lark as to how to stick up photos.
Your comment that Komatsu were always known for being better in the swamps is interesting, I have to say that I do not have the experience on dozers you guys have but I always thought the oval track lgp Cats were pretty close. After all the nearest Komatsu's were that bit more powerfull which of course made all the difference,I have seen oval track Cats working in conditions I have never seen high drives in. The high drives suffer from the same problem as Fiat-Allis FD175's,ours had too heavy a blade and was useless in soft conditions until I put a counterweight on the back.
The other problem I hear high drive operators complaining about are problems with the masterlinks tearing apart.
Having driven a 65EX I agree with LDK from an operators point of view but to buy a secondhand one is entirely a different matter,after 12000 hours they start to give serious trouble with the transmissions etc
Neil

Neil, I am either lucky or spoiled depending your point of view, it is rare that I am on a dozer that has done more than 3 or 4000 hrs.
I have never owned a dozer but it looks like that is going to change soon, looks like we will be getting a JD 700J and 750J. I would have gone for Komatsu but like CAT over here, you tell them what model you want and then they try and sell you something that suits them. If I was in the market for a D6R/T size machine, my first choice would be the D65EX/PX. I can't realy comment on the JD850 because it's 25 years since I ran one.

Surely anything that has 12000 or more hours racked up, is liable to give some trouble. Not being cocky, an honest question?

 

[Deas Plant]

Sticking your neck out.

Hi, LDK.
One of the beauties of forums like this is that you can stick your neck out as far as you like and there is almost guaranteed to be nobody with an axe with a long enough handle to chop it off. They might try to do it in print by rubbishing your views or ideas but you are as entitled as anybody else to have your own views and ideas.

To be quite honest, the only 'Kummagutsas' that I have not enjoyed operating have been the couple of D85 dozers that I have run. To me, they always seemed to be top heavy and light in the rear. For mine, a D7E, F or G would leave them for dead side cutting batters or playing in steep country.

Re machines with high hours giving trouble, yes, you can start to expect some troubles when machine hours get up around the 10,000-12,000 mark, especially if they have worked hard - - - - or, dare I say it, been ABUSED. However, from my own observations and from anecdotal evidence, it would appear that while you might expect some troubles with a Cat machine, you can pretty much bet on trouble with a 'Kummagutsa' when they get to those sorts of figures.

This is not to say that there are no exceptions to this generalisation. Most of us have been around or heard of 'dud' Cat machines and seen or heard of some really good runs out of other brands, including 'Kummagutsa'. I doubt there is a manufacturuer of heavy equipment anywhere who has not occasionally made either a 'lemon' machine or a 'lemon' model, Cat included.

 

[LDK]

Hi, LDK.
One of the beauties of forums like this is that you can stick your neck out as far as you like and there is almost guaranteed to be nobody with an axe with a long enough handle to chop it off. They might try to do it in print by rubbishing your views or ideas but you are as entitled as anybody else to have your own views and ideas.

To be quite honest, the only 'Kummagutsas' that I have not enjoyed operating have been the couple of D85 dozers that I have run. To me, they always seemed to be top heavy and light in the rear. For mine, a D7E, F or G would leave them for dead side cutting batters or playing in steep country.

Re machines with high hours giving trouble, yes, you can start to expect some troubles when machine hours get up around the 10,000-12,000 mark, especially if they have worked hard - - - - or, dare I say it, been ABUSED. However, from my own observations and from anecdotal evidence, it would appear that while you might expect some troubles with a Cat machine, you can pretty much bet on trouble with a 'Kummagutsa' when they get to those sorts of figures.

This is not to say that there are no exceptions to this generalisation. Most of us have been around or heard of 'dud' Cat machines and seen or heard of some really good runs out of other brands, including 'Kummagutsa'. I doubt there is a manufacturuer of heavy equipment anywhere who has not occasionally made either a 'lemon' machine or a 'lemon' model, Cat included.

Hi Deas,
I have never been a fan of the D7s hi drive or otherwise and have the same feelings about the 85.

 

[Deas Plant]

Not a fan???????????????????????????????????

Hi, LDK.
To be totally honest, I've never been a great fan of the D7's either. Give me an 8 or a 9 anytime. It's just that I found the D7E, F and G to be pretty good for side-cutting batters, especially the F, even though it was light on the front.

 

[LDK]

Hi, LDK.
To be totally honest, I've never been a great fan of the D7's either. Give me an 8 or a 9 anytime. It's just that I found the D7E, F and G to be pretty good for side-cutting batters, especially the F, even though it was light on the front.

Deas,
yeh, when I am on one, I allways seem to be wishing they were either bigger or smaller.
The last one that I ran, a H LGP was in your part of the world, just outside of Melbourne in the Yara valley, in 98-99. I haven't had the pleasure since?

 

[Dozer575]

I agree about the D7's, they just can't do it very good.

Blind spots on a D9? There are no blind spots on a dozer if your an operator. It maybe difficult at times seeing those grade stakes, pickups that park on the job site, motorcycles, chainsaws that loggers leave on the ground etc. But really there are no blind spots, cause there is always a way to see there.
Now blade visability is another thing on some dozers, older oval D8's and D9's are the best for that as is a D375 Komatsu.

 

[alco]

Hi Deas, Putting classics like D9G and D5B aside for a moment. I have heard from the Alberta oilsand tailings applications (the guys with the rads on the roof that we see submerged a lot) that when in heavy going that the Komatsu can back up out of trouble a whole lot better than the high drive.

That would probably be true if you could get the blade to lift higher. As it stands, the Komatsus are quite nose heavy and as soon as you go to back up the nose drops. When the nose drops, the blade acts like a big anchor and it is actually harder to get them out.

Brian

 

[LDK]

Blind spots and thought I was an operator?

I agree about the D7's, they just can't do it very good.

Blind spots on a D9? There are no blind spots on a dozer if your an operator. It maybe difficult at times seeing those grade stakes, pickups that park on the job site, motorcycles, chainsaws that loggers leave on the ground etc. But really there are no blind spots, cause there is always a way to see there.
Now blade visability is another thing on some dozers, older oval D8's and D9's are the best for that as is a D375 Komatsu.

Hi 575
Oh for sure you find ways to work around those areas where your sight line is broken (took me a while to work out what to put there, obviously "blind spot" is not acceptable )
I do know one guy that was reversing on a 9G and paying attenion to where he was going, he stopped because their was no scraper to push. He decided that in this lull, to use the spare time to do some
dozer work in the cut. Unbeknown to him a Land Rover had pulled up in front of him as he had been coming back, the first he knew of it was when he saw it rolling over in his bladefull of dirt. That LR was bright yellow and I know that had he seen it he would have gone around it. Luckily the guy that had been driving the vehicle had allready got out of it. That happened in 67/68, by the way I wasn't on that 9 but I loved the 9G and the H.

 

[Countryboy]

There are no blind spots on a dozer if your an operator.

Now blade visability is another thing on some dozers.

Seems a little contradictive don't ya think. :cool2

Every piece of equipment I can possibly think of has blind spots. Name one piece of equipment where you can see every inch of the perimeter of the machine from inside the cab. No matter how good an operator, if you can't see a particular spot at any place in the vicinity of the machine, this is a blind spot.

Blade visibilty is another issue. An operator doesn't need to see the front or corners of the blade to accomplish a job. You can't see the front bumper on your truck but does that keep you from being able to park close to something without hitting it. You know where your bumper is even though you can't see it. A dozer blade is meant to come into contact with stuff so why must you have to see it to accomplish a job?

 

[Grader4me]

Seems a little contradictive don't ya think. :cool2

Every piece of equipment I can possibly think of has blind spots. Name one piece of equipment where you can see every inch of the perimeter of the machine from inside the cab. No matter how good an operator, if you can't see a particular spot at any place in the vascinity of the machine, this is a blind spot.

Blade visibilty is another issue. An operator doesn't need to see the front or corners of the blade to accomplish a job. You can't see the front bumper on your truck but does that keep you from being able to park close to something without hitting it. You know where your bumper is even though you can't see it. A dozer blade is meant to come into contact with stuff so why must you have to see it to accomplish a job?

I agree that any piece of equipment has blind spots, and I agree that you don't need to see the front of the blade(can't anyway) to accomplish a job. Now, I have very little experience on a dozer, but don't you have to see the corners in order to set and maintain/control your blade? I know with a grader that is what you are watching most of the time. Am I wrong in thinking this? As said I am far from being an experienced dozer operator. :beatsme

 

[pushcat]

The only time I watch the corners of my blade is when I start a new pass when I'm fine grading. After I get started I look ahead or watch the level in the front window. I always tend to tilt the blade one way or the other if I watch the corners, maybe it's just me. I can feel if I'm going up or down and can also hear and feel the machine pulling harder if I'm cutting too much. I think most dozer operators run mostly by feel. Same way in a grader, If I watch the corners I overcompensate and get a washboard grade. Just set it and forget it.

 

[Countryboy]

I agree that any piece of equipment has blind spots, and I agree that you don't need to see the front of the blade(can't anyway) to accomplish a job. Now, I have very little experience on a dozer, but don't you have to see the corners in order to set and maintain/control your blade? I know with a grader that is what you are watching most of the time. Am I wrong in thinking this? As said I am far from being an experienced dozer operator. :beatsme

Well on a grader, your almost always doing fine grading, cleaning up roads and stuff where your working to get the closest to something as possible, so more work doesn't need to be done, correct?

The dozers job is mainly for moving large amounts of dirt, maybe with a little fine grading thrown in as necessary. I can't see the corners of a bucket on a 980G but if you told me to put that corner exactly 2 1/2 inches from a wall, I would have no problem doing it.

My point is that you don't have to necessarily see it to be able to use it. Yes, visibility is nice but not necessary.

 

[Grader4me]

Well on a grader, your almost always doing fine grading, cleaning up roads and stuff where your working to get the closest to something as possible, so more work doesn't need to be done, correct?

The dozers job is mainly for moving large amounts of dirt, maybe with a little fine grading thrown in as necessary. I can't see the corners of a bucket on a 980G but if you told me to put that corner exactly 2 1/2 inches from a wall, I would have no problem doing it.

My point is that you don't have to necessarily see it to be able to use it. Yes, visibility is nice but not necessary.

Like I said CB I have very little experience on a dozer and please don't think that I am trying to prove you wrong, as this is not my intent.
With a grader you are doing a lot of different things, from making heavy cuts, light cuts, leveling gravel, asphalt, ditching, fine grading, plowing snow, cutting ice, etc. With all of these applications you watch the corners of your blade. Of course common sense comes into play when you are taking to much of a cut as you "feel" it.
With a loader you have a bucket leveler (if not equipped, it doesn't take long to realize when your bucket is setting level) and when it is level on the ground your not cutting, but when to tip it ahead you start cutting, and the further ahead the more you cut, and you can judge pretty good by the "feel' of it, as you can't see the corners of the bucket.
I am just curious as to how the dozer operators control the blade..mostly by watching the corners...mostly by "feel"...or both? Is visibility necessary? Just curious

 

[Countryboy]

Like I said CB I have very little experience on a dozer and please don't think that I am trying to prove you wrong, as this is not my intent.

Naw man, that ain't how your coming across.

I see where your coming from, I just picture how a job will look when finished. I then picture how to complete the job. Then I work toward the finished project.

As you can see, I do alot of visualizing before I even start something, so visualizing what I can't see isn't a big deal for me.