Urban Snow Plowing

[Steve Frazier]

I've got a question just to satisfy my curiosity. I see a lot of videos where a motor grader is used for snow removal in cities. I'm in the Hudson Valley of NY and we rarely see motor graders used on construction job sites anymore and now that nearly all of our roads are paved very few local municipalities own a machine anymore. I've never seen a grader used for snow around here.

How is the cost of the machine justified to use for snow in these cities? It wouldn't seem there would be call for grading during other times of the year with all the pavement. I understand in western states there's still a lot of gravel roads to be maintained and getting double service for snow would make sense. I watched a video yesterday in a city with square blocks that had several graders clearing snow.

Wouldn't a truck with plow be both less expensive and more versatile?

 

[DB2]

Around here truck plows are used as a front line of defence but when the slush or snow turns to ice the graders are called in. Truck plow is basically useless against any accumulation of ice.

 

[Coaldust]

It’s been a long time since I was involved with the financials of snow removal, but yes. Graders are expensive to operate and they damage a lot of stuff. In very cold conditions, it’s the only way to cut through compact ice.

 

[cuttin edge]

Million dollar question. I'm told the city of Montreal leases 20 or more graders for snow removal, and part of the deal is that the lease company rents them out to contractors in the summer months. I live in a small city of less than 20'000 people, and we have 2 graders, and only a few gravel roads. Both plow in the winter. Every provincial service district has a grader, but here is the kicker. They rented our company grader, along with me, as 2 of their graders were down, and I was not supposed to use the moldboard when plowing, as it made the road too slippery. I had to use the front mounted one way plow. Here in the city, Tandem trucks with sanders do the out lying areas, and main drags. The graders have assigned routes in subdivisions, as well as a fleet of single axle trucks with sanders. The down town areas, are a couple loaders with something like this.

. They have area where they pile the snow up, and haul it away later. I'm told it's way cheaper than using the snow blower every storm. I'm guessing if they have it, they are going to use it. Another thing to consider. We have a lot of contracts that require sanding. All the company uses for sanders is a couple f 550s with stainless steel sanders. I've asked why they don't get a sander for one of the 5 tons, and was told that there is no need for someone with a truck license to drive the ton trucks. Not everyone that works for public works has a license to drive truck, and the way they operate, you don't need any experience to plow with the grader.

 

[Steve Frazier]

I get that in hard pack conditions graders would work better than trucks but that doesn't seem to be the case in the videos I've watched. The graders seem to be the front line plows. These videos may be in Canadian cities, I'll have to start checking the descriptions on them.

Most I see have a front plow and passenger side wing and I've seen some with a sawtooth blade on the center moldboard to shred ice and hardpack. One video I watched yesterday had 3 graders working a city neighborhood together. The guys operating them appeared pretty experienced with them too articulating the machine around sharp 90° turns.

 

[cuttin edge]

Montreal leases or rents the graders from lets say November to May, then Strongo, or Brandt rents the machines to contractors for the rest of the year. I'm guessing that the leasor maintains the machines, We had one one summer, and it had to be returned so it could be ready for snow at the start of the season. I am not aware of a situation where you could rent a truck. Maybe that's the hook? I know the city here uses some of their trucks in summer, but most just sit. The have a few gravel roads to maintain, but their graders mostly sit as well. Sidewalk plows as well as the farm tractors can have mowing attachments and sweepers attached. Adding to that. Our construction season ends in winter. Paving is mostly done in early November, and doesn't start till May. Crushing gets costly once things start to freeze up, so that ends. There are some jobs, but frozen ground makes things harder. I have been told that there is not a lot of money in plowing. High insurance costs have eliminated a lot of the cut throat practices. But every year we pay thousands to have snow tires put on loaders, then take them off in the spring. They just bought a new Cat 966XE, and have 4 new snow tires on the way for it, can just imagine what those cost. But even though they say no money in it, they also say there is no point having all these loaders sitting in the yard doing nothing.

 

[Coaldust]

Good point. Sometimes I wonder about the huge fleet of newer loaders I see parked all over town. The snow contractors leave them parked at the larger clients and they sit all winter. Dedicated to that one parking lot. I don’t see how that can pencil out. Or, how anyone can operate with the current snow removal insurance rates. Especially, with a currently, snowless winter.

I hear the real money is in operating a snow dump.

 

[CM1995]

I hear the real money is in operating a snow dump.

Do tell. I live in AL and we get an inch or two of snow every 3-4 years.

Have a dirt/concrete/hardcore dump but how does a snow dump work?

 

[Steve Frazier]

What they do for snow removal is put 3 foot sideboards on the standard dump trucks to haul snow. Most cities use a loader mounted snowblower with a truck loading chute to load the snow. It gets hauled from the city streets to a nearby dump area. There's usually a loader or dozer stacking the dumped snow.

For plowing most municipalities use 6 wheel dumps with a front mounted plow. There are either slide in spreaders or chassis mounted for spreading salt. Our State and County use 10 wheelers for added capacity of salt.

Our asphalt plants usually open end of March through the second week of December and shut down for the winter. The municipal trucks have their dump bodies remounted and haul asphalt, or debris from cleaning ditches and shoulders or other transportation needs.

I've been involved in snow operations since the late 70s but mostly rural areas along with commercial parking lots.

 

[Coaldust]

The muni, state and federal regulations have made it nearly impossible to move snow to a central location. A flat piece of property with waste water permitting is like gold. In the past, it could be dumped into the ocean.

Which has led to contractors using huge natural gas heated snow melting contraptions. The trash and solids can be separated from the melt water, which goes into the waste water stream for treatment.

While that’s happening, the state operated airport dumps about 500,000 gallons of plane deicer glycol into Cook Inlet and that’s ok. Nobody wants to talk about that.

And, all the stuff that gets spread on the runways and taxiways. In the past, locally produced urea was used, but since Cook Inlet natty gas is in short supply, we can’t economically operate a urea plant anymore. But, I digress.

 

[CM1995]

Interesting.

 

[Camshawn]

Around here, I see truck mounted plows are on 10 wheel dump trucks. Some have sanders and now, some have brine tanks in the back. The Township has a flat deck that has a brine tank also during snow events. The smaller 450 and 550 sized utility trucks also got plows mounted a few yrs ago for the smaller roads. The grader( if we still have one) also is out ploughing snow. We only get a few snow events most yrs and it is all hands on deck. The neighbouring municipality is similar.

 

[Welder Dave]

The city here contracts out about 80 to 100 graders in addition to their own fleet. A few years ago there was so much snow that companies with large parking lots were hiring the contractors at a premium. This left the city real short on snow removal equipment. The city put in a new policy that any contractors hired by the city had to give full priority to the city.

 

[Coaldust]

That’s a huge grader spread. Wow

 

[cuttin edge]

The city here contracts out about 80 to 100 graders in addition to their own fleet. A few years ago there was so much snow that companies with large parking lots were hiring the contractors at a premium. This left the city real short on snow removal equipment. The city put in a new policy that any contractors hired by the city had to give full priority to the city.

I'm told a lot of Alberta does not use salt on the roads, that could explain why so many graders

 

[cuttin edge]

Good point. Sometimes I wonder about the huge fleet of newer loaders I see parked all over town. The snow contractors leave them parked at the larger clients and they sit all winter. Dedicated to that one parking lot. I don’t see how that can pencil out. Or, how anyone can operate with the current snow removal insurance rates. Especially, with a currently, snowless winter.

I hear the real money is in operating a snow dump.

Most Malls are contract, so you are getting paid anyway. We have a container with power, and I think there are 6 loaders and a couple bobcats plugged in, as well as a couple pallets of salt and calcium inside for the shovelers. In the city south of here, I see the contractor has a salt shed on site. A lot of times in a small snowfall, it's cheaper to just salt or sand it.

 

[ovrszd]

I get that in hard pack conditions graders would work better than trucks but that doesn't seem to be the case in the videos I've watched. The graders seem to be the front line plows. These videos may be in Canadian cities, I'll have to start checking the descriptions on them.

Most I see have a front plow and passenger side wing and I've seen some with a sawtooth blade on the center moldboard to shred ice and hardpack. One video I watched yesterday had 3 graders working a city neighborhood together. The guys operating them appeared pretty experienced with them too articulating the machine around sharp 90° turns.

First off, for clarity, I'm extremely rural. I maintain 50 miles of gravel roads. I've never counted for sure, but I'm guessing I deal with 50 mailboxes and driveways or less. I run an AWD grader.

I'm soooooo glad I don't blade in the city. You would rarely go 200 feet without an obstacle, driveway, vehicle, etc. If I did have to blade in the city I'd prefer a grader. Much better control of the blade. Much better maneuverability. A grader will turn a much tighter corner than a truck. Much better visibility.

But to your original question, I'd say snow work is less than half of the uses of a municipality machine. So while it might seem inefficient to use a grader for snow removal, they are simply using what's in their inventory.

Next time you watch a good snow removal video link it to this thread. We all like watching videos.

 

[JaredV]

I drove to Michigan this summer. I couldn't believe how much rot I saw on newer vehicles. I can only conclude that the Big 3 have a salt lobby. It must be rough to buy a new vehicle knowing it'll be Swiss cheese in five years, or else it's just the way of life there. Perhaps one of you Michiganders can comment.

 

[cuttin edge]

I drove to Michigan this summer. I couldn't believe how much rot I saw on newer vehicles. I can only conclude that the Big 3 have a salt lobby. It must be rough to buy a new vehicle knowing it'll be Swiss cheese in five years, or else it's just the way of life there. Perhaps one of you Michiganders can comment.

I'm in Canada. My 2013 Ford pickup is rusting like crazy. Like I can push my finger through some spots. My work truck is a 2018 Ford pick with the aluminum cab, and so far so good. They sent me this fall to get the under side oiled up, but no corrosion as of yet.

 

[cuttin edge]

What they do for snow removal is put 3 foot sideboards on the standard dump trucks to haul snow. Most cities use a loader mounted snowblower with a truck loading chute to load the snow. It gets hauled from the city streets to a nearby dump area. There's usually a loader or dozer stacking the dumped snow.

For plowing most municipalities use 6 wheel dumps with a front mounted plow. There are either slide in spreaders or chassis mounted for spreading salt. Our State and County use 10 wheelers for added capacity of salt.

Our asphalt plants usually open end of March through the second week of December and shut down for the winter. The municipal trucks have their dump bodies remounted and haul asphalt, or debris from cleaning ditches and shoulders or other transportation needs.

I've been involved in snow operations since the late 70s but mostly rural areas along with commercial parking lots.

A loader mounted blower is expensive to run. The down town area, the sidewalk machines

Take the snow to to the curb, then a couple loaders with power angle pusher blades move the snow to the center of the road, and run side by side like a couple of D8s, and pile the snow up in vacant lots. Later in the week, the night shift will haul it away to the snow dump. As of yet, there has been no issues with the environment getting involved. They use to rent out a D6 size tractor to push the snow up, but in the last while, the dumps never fill up. During a large storm, they will use the blower down town, and hire a bunch of dump trailers. Not a lot of tandem trucks around anymore, but lots of dump trailers. Areas on the fringes of the city, are contracted out. They used to use trucks with a plow and wing, but it's mostly loaders with angle pushers. Some of those blades open up to 20 feet. The contractor that does my subdivision also has a cat grader, but mostly used the loaders. Their home base is 10 miles away, and the walk the loaders every storm. Newer machines are so much smoother and faster now. I could imagine walking and old 75 screamin demon Michigan that far to plow