tylermckee
Senior Member
Yup, after my i was told yanmar = deere, i didnt really believe it so i did some research and thats all that i could find.
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Which excavators are made by the same people??
- Thread starter iceberg210
- Start date
Yup, after my i was told yanmar = deere, i didnt really believe it so i did some research and thats all that i could find.
Cat420
Senior Member
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I saw a NH backhoe on a trailer about 6 months ago and it was obvious that it was a just Case 580 painted with NH colors. I know they aren't all like that, but it must be an option.
Tigerotor77W
Senior Member
Cat420 -- Case backhoe loaders are not New Hollands or vice versa in the US. It's possible that someone intentionally painted a Case unit to look like an NH, but they're not at all the same. Key differences are an over-center design and bent loader arms on the Case backhoe. New Holland has a straight boom (but not over-center or over/under) and straight loader arms.
d4c24a
Senior Member
they are in the uk a co worker has just brought one:thumbsup
Cat420
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I know they haven't been the same before. It is a night and day difference between Case and NH. I have run both and can say it would be a great improvement for NH to be a repainted Case, but I was as surprised as anyone when I saw the machine on a truck. It looked brand new like it was on the way to a dealer.
It's possible they had it painted, but why would someone care which brand was painted on their machine? Company logo is one thing, but changing brand designations seems like a waste of money. Unless it came from Europe, but again I would question the financial reasoning behind this.
MVFD
Well-Known Member
I do believe that the old Volvo's were based from the old sumsung machines but I dont see any similarities with the new machines. up intill 2001? Our 2003 looks nothing like sumsung. the cabs are fairly square not rounded like the sumsungs use to be and the old volvo's use to be. When I first saw volvo's I was turned away from them because of how they looked. since the new style has come out I have been very attracted to them.
New style
http://www.titanplant.co.nz/images/equipment/EC330B.jpg
Old style
http://www.fradet.fr/images/VOLVO%20EC%20210%20LC%20Grande.jpg
Tigerotor77W
Senior Member
That's true. Case markets a four-wheel steer backhoe loader in Europe that is simliar if not identical to the NH machine.
MVFD -- Samsung was actually bought out by Volvo and the original line tossed. Therefore, Volvo excavators got some of Samsung's technology, but the Samsung line is gone.
d4c24a
Senior Member
new holland
the machime he has brought is of conventional design (small front wheels)and is the same as a NH 95 i will try and snap some pictures :thumbsup
the machime he has brought is of conventional design (small front wheels)and is the same as a NH 95 i will try and snap some pictures :thumbsup
New Holland Backhoes
New Holland and Case are running their own backhoes. They are not the same. The skid steers are not the same either. The New Holland box blade tractor is the same as the Case. The mini excavators are kobelcos for both brands. The big excavators are different between Case and New Holland. New Holland is with kobelco making the same excavotor. The dozers are the same for both brands. Also interesting is the fact that the Cat 416D is using the same rearend and transmission as a New Holland backhoe.
New Holland and Case are running their own backhoes. They are not the same. The skid steers are not the same either. The New Holland box blade tractor is the same as the Case. The mini excavators are kobelcos for both brands. The big excavators are different between Case and New Holland. New Holland is with kobelco making the same excavotor. The dozers are the same for both brands. Also interesting is the fact that the Cat 416D is using the same rearend and transmission as a New Holland backhoe.
definatly not!
Interesting who is "in bed" with who. One thing I find perplexing is that CNH includes Kobelco and so why doesn't CASE use the Kobelco excavators? They have had great luck with Sumitomo but they are not part of CNH or at least not yet. They are fortunate to be able to pull from two different manufacturers but from a business standpoint it doesn't make alot sense to me. The only thing I can think is to maintain continuity in the product line. After the Proclain mess, maybe they have fielded a quality product now and don't want to jump around to different brands. On a related topic I am surprised that New Holland construction has survived the merger in tact. I really thought that they would try and streamline the product line. They have great market share in skid steers and some in backhoes after that I think it gets kinda light.
Tigerotor77W
Senior Member
Kaiser, I have some opinions to address your points (what else is new!). 
First, I think Case has kept the Sumitomo identity because it's had it for years. Their recent product (and the Link-Belt product) has been Sumitomo for as long as I can remember, and there's likely something to be said about product commonality from generation to generation that's worth keeping.
As far as the NHC brand surviving, I'm not too surprised here, because NH was never a huge name in earthmoving to begin with. It's mostly an ag brand, which made it weak on its own, but one that got stronger as more companies got pulled into the CNH network. For instance, NH was known for its skid-steers and backhoe loaders. These two product lines survived [nearly] untouched (manufacturing processes and certain components/technologies aside). However, Fiat-Allis wheel loaders and dozers and Kobelco excavators made sense for the company because neither of these two brands were that strong in the States. Therefore, by eliminating those and incorporating them into the NHC colors reinforces the NHC brand by bringing some of the stronger , but not necessarily well-known, products into that family. This essentially gives NHC the ability to mimick Cat up through, say, the quarry-size of machinery: skid-steers through medium wheel loaders; mini-excavators through large (but not mining) excavators. Why not put the NHC skid-steers and backhoe-loaders into the Kobelco family? Probably two reasons: Kobelco dealers are sometimes Case dealers; the NHC brand is known for those two products. While CNH said that it would continue to keep its identities separate, I think the rationale is to play the strengths of each company -- and if a company wasn't having huge luck penetrating a market, lump it in with a company that can use that strength (and its own previous leverage) to give more "oomph."
Who knows. Just my opinion.
First, I think Case has kept the Sumitomo identity because it's had it for years. Their recent product (and the Link-Belt product) has been Sumitomo for as long as I can remember, and there's likely something to be said about product commonality from generation to generation that's worth keeping.
As far as the NHC brand surviving, I'm not too surprised here, because NH was never a huge name in earthmoving to begin with. It's mostly an ag brand, which made it weak on its own, but one that got stronger as more companies got pulled into the CNH network. For instance, NH was known for its skid-steers and backhoe loaders. These two product lines survived [nearly] untouched (manufacturing processes and certain components/technologies aside). However, Fiat-Allis wheel loaders and dozers and Kobelco excavators made sense for the company because neither of these two brands were that strong in the States. Therefore, by eliminating those and incorporating them into the NHC colors reinforces the NHC brand by bringing some of the stronger , but not necessarily well-known, products into that family. This essentially gives NHC the ability to mimick Cat up through, say, the quarry-size of machinery: skid-steers through medium wheel loaders; mini-excavators through large (but not mining) excavators. Why not put the NHC skid-steers and backhoe-loaders into the Kobelco family? Probably two reasons: Kobelco dealers are sometimes Case dealers; the NHC brand is known for those two products. While CNH said that it would continue to keep its identities separate, I think the rationale is to play the strengths of each company -- and if a company wasn't having huge luck penetrating a market, lump it in with a company that can use that strength (and its own previous leverage) to give more "oomph."
Who knows. Just my opinion.
farm_boy
Senior Member
Tiger:
I am impressed with your assessment of who makes who in the world of CNH’s product lines. :notworthy I also enjoyed (and agree with) your incite into why CNH continued their relationship even after their acquisition of Kobelco.
If I may I would like to add a few details to your take on Fiat Allis/NH excavators and the NH/Case backhoes.
The NH excavator story starts back in ~1998 when Fiat purchased O&K Berlin which produced their 130 thru 600 size machines. From this point forward the Fiat Allis machines in North America were O&K machines. These proved to be shorted lived as shortly after F/A exited the NA market and rebranded their equipment as New Holland. New Holland continued to market the O&K machines as the “EC†series. The mini’s were indeed Schaeff machines and consisted of the EC15 thru EC45. In 2003 CNH purchased 65% of Kobelco America Inc (KAI) and 35% of Kobelco Asia. With controlling interest in the North American manufacturing and marketing arm of KAI it made sense to combine Kobelco with NH (marketing, dealer network and product). Because the O&K machines were being imported from Germany and the Kobelco machines were being built in GA, the EC line was short lived after the merge of the two companies. This was the birth of the “EH†line of NH excavators. This was about the same time that Terex purchase the compact excavator line from Schaeff. This ended the agreement between Schaeff with CNH and Kobelco started making all of the excavators for NH. Keeping in line with the strategy of a focus on “core customers†the new EH line of excavators only went as big as the EH215.
The story of the rubber tire backhoes is a different one. The first point I’ll make on the NH backhoe is that the LB115 (or B115 as it’s called now) has no relationship to the old Fiat Allis FT110.:nono The FT110 was Fiat Allis’ attempt to enter the utility class of equipment with a rubber tire backhoe. Needless to say it was not a very successful attempt. The product suffered several durability issues, but in spite of this it was a little ahead of its time. The original machines had EH controls on the seat that would spin around with the operator (similar to the JCB of today). The LB115 was developed independent of the FT110 and was sold congruently.
The question of whether or not the Case and NH backhoes are the same machine depends largely on the market. With that being said, even in markets where the machines appear to be very different upon closer examination they will prove to be very similar. In the North American market the machines are different (frames, cabs, loader and backhoe). The NH is built in Imola Italy while the Case goes down the line in Burlington IA. Although they appear to be very different if you look under the bonnet you will find they share the same engine, electrical components, hydraulic system and I think maybe even a transmission.
If you are in Europe you will find a different story. Up until late 2002/early 2003 the Case and NH machines were completely different. At about this time frame the Case Europe folks introduced the “R†series. This machine is virtually identical to the NH machine. There are a few subtle hints of a Case heritage such a forward tilting hood, a cab that has a Case “feeling†(same structure though), and bent loader arms straight from the LB115. The backhoe however is the same straight, non over centering design as NH. This is largely in part to the fact the over center boom does not work very well in Europe because of the dominance of the side shift backhoe.
Checkout the 580 and 590 Super R in this brochure:
http://www.casece.com/files/tbl_s85ProductDescription/ProductionSpecificationPDF470/2283/580-590%20SR_GB.PDF
As far as other CNH products and their similarity between brands I’ll run them down quickly:
• Dozers: The same. The exception to this is the 1150, which Case has an exclusive on.
• Skid Steer Loaders: Different machines between Case and NH, but built in the same plant with the same powertrain (engine, drive pumps, drive motors)
• Graders: The same.
• Wheel Loaders: The new models are the same. 21E=W50TC, 321E=W80TC, 521D=W110, 621D=W130, 721E=W170B, 821E=W190B
• Compaction: Same although short lived for NH
• Articulated Trucks: Same although short lived for NH
There was also mention of Cat using a NH axle in a previous post. This is true; in fact this was the case from the very beginning of the Cat backhoe. They used a NH axle all the way through the D series. The E series brought a new axle made by I believe Dana Corp. In true Cat fashion it is being talked up as a “new Caterpillar†axle.
It is hard to keep everything straight….and this is only one company….CNH!! :dizzy
I am impressed with your assessment of who makes who in the world of CNH’s product lines. :notworthy I also enjoyed (and agree with) your incite into why CNH continued their relationship even after their acquisition of Kobelco.
If I may I would like to add a few details to your take on Fiat Allis/NH excavators and the NH/Case backhoes.
The NH excavator story starts back in ~1998 when Fiat purchased O&K Berlin which produced their 130 thru 600 size machines. From this point forward the Fiat Allis machines in North America were O&K machines. These proved to be shorted lived as shortly after F/A exited the NA market and rebranded their equipment as New Holland. New Holland continued to market the O&K machines as the “EC†series. The mini’s were indeed Schaeff machines and consisted of the EC15 thru EC45. In 2003 CNH purchased 65% of Kobelco America Inc (KAI) and 35% of Kobelco Asia. With controlling interest in the North American manufacturing and marketing arm of KAI it made sense to combine Kobelco with NH (marketing, dealer network and product). Because the O&K machines were being imported from Germany and the Kobelco machines were being built in GA, the EC line was short lived after the merge of the two companies. This was the birth of the “EH†line of NH excavators. This was about the same time that Terex purchase the compact excavator line from Schaeff. This ended the agreement between Schaeff with CNH and Kobelco started making all of the excavators for NH. Keeping in line with the strategy of a focus on “core customers†the new EH line of excavators only went as big as the EH215.
The story of the rubber tire backhoes is a different one. The first point I’ll make on the NH backhoe is that the LB115 (or B115 as it’s called now) has no relationship to the old Fiat Allis FT110.:nono The FT110 was Fiat Allis’ attempt to enter the utility class of equipment with a rubber tire backhoe. Needless to say it was not a very successful attempt. The product suffered several durability issues, but in spite of this it was a little ahead of its time. The original machines had EH controls on the seat that would spin around with the operator (similar to the JCB of today). The LB115 was developed independent of the FT110 and was sold congruently.
The question of whether or not the Case and NH backhoes are the same machine depends largely on the market. With that being said, even in markets where the machines appear to be very different upon closer examination they will prove to be very similar. In the North American market the machines are different (frames, cabs, loader and backhoe). The NH is built in Imola Italy while the Case goes down the line in Burlington IA. Although they appear to be very different if you look under the bonnet you will find they share the same engine, electrical components, hydraulic system and I think maybe even a transmission.
If you are in Europe you will find a different story. Up until late 2002/early 2003 the Case and NH machines were completely different. At about this time frame the Case Europe folks introduced the “R†series. This machine is virtually identical to the NH machine. There are a few subtle hints of a Case heritage such a forward tilting hood, a cab that has a Case “feeling†(same structure though), and bent loader arms straight from the LB115. The backhoe however is the same straight, non over centering design as NH. This is largely in part to the fact the over center boom does not work very well in Europe because of the dominance of the side shift backhoe.
Checkout the 580 and 590 Super R in this brochure:
http://www.casece.com/files/tbl_s85ProductDescription/ProductionSpecificationPDF470/2283/580-590%20SR_GB.PDF
As far as other CNH products and their similarity between brands I’ll run them down quickly:
• Dozers: The same. The exception to this is the 1150, which Case has an exclusive on.
• Skid Steer Loaders: Different machines between Case and NH, but built in the same plant with the same powertrain (engine, drive pumps, drive motors)
• Graders: The same.
• Wheel Loaders: The new models are the same. 21E=W50TC, 321E=W80TC, 521D=W110, 621D=W130, 721E=W170B, 821E=W190B
• Compaction: Same although short lived for NH
• Articulated Trucks: Same although short lived for NH
There was also mention of Cat using a NH axle in a previous post. This is true; in fact this was the case from the very beginning of the Cat backhoe. They used a NH axle all the way through the D series. The E series brought a new axle made by I believe Dana Corp. In true Cat fashion it is being talked up as a “new Caterpillar†axle.
It is hard to keep everything straight….and this is only one company….CNH!! :dizzy
Tigerotor77W
Senior Member
I'll second that, KSSS! I'm glad I wasn't completely out of my mind, though some of my earlier points are wrong, it seems. The whole story of how NH tranisitioned from Fiat-Allis machines to Kobelco still confuses me, so I'm hoping that I won't have to know it down to a T. (No pun intended cf. my next sentence) Terex is hard to keep straight, too, in that it has so many brands that produce similar products that it can get overwhelming. Some magazine should devote a section to the A-Z alliances in the industry (hint, Larry!) :bouncegri
Cat420
Senior Member
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Was the NH axle on Cat for the rear axle? Our D Series 420 has a ZF front axle, but I've never checked the rear.
farm_boy
Senior Member
Cat420,
Rear axle only.
Rear axle only.
coopers
Senior Member
That was a nice little history lesson. I'll depend on you now for updates on case! :bouncegri When I looked at the 580 SR model they have in Europe I cringed, not a good look but I guess I'm used to case's look. Oh well, as long as it doesn't make its way over seas.
Blake
WA
Blake
WA