Wildland Fire Dozers

[Dozer575]

Your right it would not be good to have it die on you with fire approaching.

 

[Wild Pete]

Getting Burned Over

Dozer575

I've only been on one major fire and very quickly learned how vulnerable you are.

My Brother was an operator for Cal Fire and was burned over 3 or 4 times. On one occasion in the Las Padres Natl. Forest he was working with 2 contract dozers (No cabs and/or fire curtains) when Airco warned him to prepare to defend himself and team. They kicked it up a notch and cleared a safe area the best they could. Then the other 2 operators got in his cab in the middle of the safe area, they set the throttle at 1/2, turned the A/C on hi, lowered the fire curtains, and prayed.

He said, as the fire got close the inside of the cab behind the curtains got an odd orange glow from the light of the fire, the inside got up to about 130 degrees, the engine temp gauge pegged, and the engine almost died from the lack of "O2".

He said it was all over in about 1 minute but the first time it seemed like a week. The 2 contractor cats were in-op as they needed new hoses, wiring, seats and paint. His unit was prepared for fire and only needed new paint.

The 50 to 60 operators that were on the Mariposa/Yosemite fire that just finished are a brave lot. To be working up there at night on that rocky ridge, I can think of nothing more frightening. I've had a D6 get out on an unseen granite knob an inch below the surface. That D6 went 10 feet sideways so quick I couldn't believe it. It was a good thing I was in the bottom of a canyon and not on some side hill/cliff like the guys on this last fire were.

Yes it is exciting but you learn real quick to let the pros take the lead because they train, and train and train some more.

 

[Wild Pete]

Telegraph Fire Photos

Here is a link to a slide show that a local shot of the Telegraph/Yosemite fire.
A couple of dozer shots, but mostly flames, smoke, aircraft and crews.

Enjoy.

Wild Pete

http://www.golubphoto.com/slides/Telegraph/

 

[OCR]

Telegraph Fire Photos:

This is a little off topic too... but if you watched Wild Pete's link... there was
a DC-10, in a couple pics. making mud ( fire fighter lingo for retardant ) drops.

On a fire last year... can't remember the name... they got a little low and slow... took out some trees with left wing and engine... .

From what I read about the incident... it was about as close as you can get, and still...get.

A very close call... and there's a big controversy about using it at all.


OCR

 

[OCR]

Dozer accident that took Matt Will:

I read about this tragic accident... the day that it happened... on a fire fighting web site I belong to. The details have always been some what vague,
and, to some extent, still are. It's virtually impossible to conclude all the
circumstances that surround an event like this... in retrospect.

I'm sure some on this Forum know of the accident, and some might have known Matt personally. May he rest in peace.

http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/2008/lessons-learn/matt-will-colorado-fire-sai.pdf


OCR

 

[Temu]

Just took a "tour" of the Telegraph Fire...

Those fellas did an AMAZING amount of work! It wasn't what I'd expected at all...they were containing "fingers" of the fire, not just one or two defensible fire lines (breaks). Some of the dozer work on the numerous lines were over 100 yards in width! And these were common!
It was just incredible to think of the coordination of all that manpower and equipment. The area, of course, is still active...probably for another couple weeks according to a safety inspector who was out looking for hotspots when we drove through. I was also surprised to see several excavators still on the site. I didn't even know they used many of those on a wildfire!

 

[OCR]

Just took a "tour" of the Telegraph Fire...

I was also surprised to see several excavators still on the site. I didn't even know they used many of those on a wildfire!

Excavators aren't used very much for cutting line... although they will work to
some extent... dozers are still the preferred choice, at least here in R-1.

Where they really shine, is for re-hab. Some body finally figured out how well
they work for for putting the berm back and spreading it out... especially if the berm is pushed up against standing timber. It's hard to snake out pushed over trees, or even plain old dirt, with out knocking down more trees... using
a dozer... because you can't get on the other side of the berm. A 6-way blade and hyd-stat. or diff. steer helps... but it still won't come close to an
excavator with a thumb. And a thumb is required... won't sign you up without one... at least in R-1.

We have our Cat 312 BL under an EERA with the BLM, and I did use it a little for re-hab on the Derby Fire.

The biggest draw back with excavators that I see, is there walking speed,
they're so slow it takes forever to get to the line... if you can't haul, and most times you can't.

Once you get to the area though... you can't beat them for pulling the berm
back in... and they'll work on about any sloped line a dozer put in... with in
reason, of course.


OCR

 

[OCR]

Just took a "tour" of the Telegraph Fire...

I should have added this on edit to my last post, but my connection is slow
right now, and I thought I might loose the post and have to re-type it...
That's happened before... and it takes me so long to type one up... I can't
always remember it...

I was just curious about the first picture you posted, ****.

It's hard to tell from the picture... because of the perspective... but that area looks like it has been re-habed... just going by the way the brush seems
to be scattered around.... And thanks for the pictures.


OCR

 

[Temu]

Hello OCR...

Very infomative about the excavators...like I said, I was surprised to see them. You cleared it up for me-thanks!
As far as re-habed, I'm not sure what you mean...replanted in the past? I had a LOT of pictures-but I'm stupid-because I had my camera in the seat and it "bumped" to the low light setting (as you can see from the second salvaged photo)! Actually there were many pines that NEEDED the fire...the type (bristlecone?) that have to have fire to reproduce.
My camera wasn't set right to get the contrast I was after...the long fingers of fire that they contained, with the untouched areas along side...this went for MILES! The center photo also had El Capitan and Half-Dome in the background...but like I said, I screwed up!
You mentioned the Darby fire. The Bitteroot was my favorite destination for month long vacations years ago...when it was a one store, one bar town. I haven't been there in over 15 years...I can only imagine how inhabited the place is now.

 

[Wild Pete]

Thanks OCR

Thanks for posting the after accident report. While it is a terrible tragedy, I found it a fascinating read. I know when I get my old D6 74A on a sidehill much over 45% the seat covers start to disappear. I don't even want to imagine being on 85% to 90% slopes, even if you're going straight down. Too many unseen things can jump up and put you sideways so quick you can't react. As I said earlier, The wild land fire operators are a brave lot.

 

[trackfanatic]

I too read the report with a "learning from others mistakes" purpose.

What I found interesting was that in the conclusion the emphasis was placed on the lack of experience in type of an experienced operator who had already successfully negotiated a steep slope and survived. no emphasis was placed on the fact that the accident happened because the track came off. We've all been there at some point and when a track comes off you don't notice until it's too late most times. In that location too late was fatal.

I'd love to know if the track seperated through somthing mechanical such as a cannon seal letting go, or if it was too loose in the first place, or just too loose for that place and time.

We don't use dozers fighting fires much in my part of the world - mostly graders and backburning because the country's usually flat and open and fires often have 20 mile fronts on them and limited manpower to do anything else. On the hills we just let her go until it comes out where we can deal with it. The advantage of a population density of about 1 person/ 50 square mile I suppose.

 

[OCR]

Serious Accident Investigation Report:

I too read the report with a "learning from others mistakes" purpose.

What I found interesting was that in the conclusion the emphasis was placed on the lack of experience in type of an experienced operator who had already successfully negotiated a steep slope and survived. no emphasis was placed on the fact that the accident happened because the track came off. We've all been there at some point and when a track comes off you don't notice until it's too late most times. In that location too late was fatal.

I'd love to know if the track seperated through somthing mechanical such as a cannon seal letting go, or if it was too loose in the first place, or just too loose for that place and time.

From the Serious Accident Investigation Report:

On D4641’s second push, “…with one more push and um, it completely drops the right track off. He pushes forward, right track slides off on the soft side off the fill side.” (The soft side or fill side is the downhill side of the slope). HFEO #2 waved his hands to alert D4641 of the situation but did not know if HFEO #1 noticed him.

Thanks for your input, trackfanatic... these reports are difficult to read at best... due to all the acronyms that are used by the government agencies.

I don't think the second operator meant that the track actually came off of the machine... the machine went off the low side of the the slope.

That's my take of what happened... and I can't say I've done a good job of
making it any clearer, either...


With respect,

OCR

 

[OCR]

All most the same:

You mentioned the Darby fire. The Bitteroot was my favorite destination for month long vacations years ago...when it was a one store, one bar town. I haven't been there in over 15 years...I can only imagine how inhabited the place is now.

We have our Cat 312 BL under an EERA with the BLM, and I did use it a little for re-hab on the Derby Fire.

"The Derby Mountain fire burned 26 homes and over 230,000 acres and had a tremendous impact on southwest Montana." said Rehberg

I'm sorry, ****... I should have been more specific... it was so big... and actually included several other fire names... it just got shortened to the Derby Fire. Some times the fire managers basicaly put the names of several
fires under the heading of " complex ".

The fire I worked on was called the Jungle Fire, if memory serves me correct,
and it was out of Livingston, MT... on the Gallatin National Forest... and it was long out when I was there... snowed most ot the time I was there.

But, your little town of Darby seems to be doing fine...


Darby, located on U.S. Highway 93 at the sound end of the Bitterroot Valley, is a community of about 750 people offering accommodations and access to the many recreational opportunities that abound in the Bitterroot National Forest.

Sorry for the mix up,


OCR

 

[Deas Plant]

Track off...............

Hi, OCR.
I read that report the same way that you did, that the track had stayed on the machine but had slid partially off the bench that was being cut. The photo of the machine where it came to rest bears this out. I also noted that the bench had changed from inward-sloping to outward sloping along its length and that the dozer D4641 was on the outward-sloping end of the bench at the end of its last push before going over.

Now I'm not familiar with that country or that soil type but have worked in some fairly hairy places and with some less stable soil types and done some of it a little before tilting blades were an option. With a tilting blade, there is little if any excuse or reason for getting into such a situation, bedrock or large boulders underfoot notwithstanding. If you can't make the track safe, don't go there.

As harsh as it may sound, I think that operator error was at least a contributing factor here. Lack of familiarity with the machine MAY also have been a factor, but I suspect that attitude may also have had something to do with it - "You've rescued me, now I'm gonna rescue you."

The report also states that immediately before the slide and roll-over began, D4641 STOPPED and HFEO#2 thought that HFEO#1 was then going to wait for assistance to rescue D4641.

Quote from report:
"D4641 stopped. HFEO #2 thought to himself that D4641 was going to now wait and also be pulled out by the additional dozers. Moments later the back-up alarm activated, the RPM’s increased, and the dozer’s tracks began to move.
HFEO #2 observed “… the left side track goes forward and the right side track goes back. His dozer slides off the front of the mountain. It does a very slow roll to the right. His tracks are still rotating very rapidly. He goes over on his top and his tracks keep rotating and continue down the mountain to the bottom.” Unquote.

To me, that left track going forward while the machine was in reverse - "back-up alarm activated" - is a little aggressive in that situation. It goes without saying that the left track would have better traction and so would be more effective at driving the machine forward than the right track which was hanging partially over the edge in loose dirt would have been at driving it backward. I'd GUESS that he thought about his situation and then decided that that was the way to get out of it without taking into account the differences in available traction between the two sides. He may have been more successful at extracting himself if he had attempted a gentle reverse turn to the left with BOTH tracks actually driving in reverse.

The SAFE way would have been to wait for more help.

I hope we can all learn something from this incident and this report, not least that training and experience are invaluable in such situations. Which raises the question of why HFEO#1 was on an unfamiliar machine which was normally operated by HFEO#2?

Just my 0.02.

Hello, Trackfanatic.
"A population density of 1 person/50 square miles," That would seem to indicate that you don't do a lot of fire-fighting in Gippsland or the Blue Mountains, or even around my current home on the Gold Coast. The 'Red Centre' comes to mind.

Graders? Been there-done that. I found elevating scrapers to be useful tools too in grass and light scrub fires. Leave the floor open and cut about 4-6" deep with the elevator running - mixes the fuel with enough dirt to stop it being readily combustible. If you have a grass fire and can run the elevating scraper 1/2 in-1/2 out of the fire, it'll often do a nice job of putting it out in one pass. An air-con cab is best for this one.

 

[redlaker1]

do dozer operators on a fire need any level of fire training? or are they just under the supervision of someone that does?

 

[OCR]

fire training:

do dozer operators on a fire need any level of fire training? or are they just under the supervision of someone that does?

Hello redlaker1,

Yes... you need some fire training... every year in fact... check link...

Warning: Abandon hope all ye who enter here... ... you'll see what I mean...

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/training/index.html


OCR...

 

[Deas Plant]

Thrill of a lifetime.

Hello, Dozer575.
OH???????? So would you be one of those clowns who'd jump out of a perfectly good 'plane WITHOUT a 'chute and hope to link up with somebody who DOES have a 'chute on the way down, just for the thrill?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RttSHz10tIA

Working in ANY capacity on a wildfire is DANGEROUS. If you think otherwise, or if you leave others thinking otherwise, or both, you are also DANGEROUS.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that you are DANGEROUS anyway because of all the crap and misinformation that you have posted on this and other forums under several different pseudonyms for many years now.

 

[redlaker1]

Hello redlaker1,

Yes... you need some fire training... every year in fact... check link...

Warning: Abandon hope all ye who enter here... ... you'll see what I mean...

http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/training/index.html


OCR...

not 100% sure what you mean, but I find the incident command system and all the training levels in the states really confusing. and I have had hours of training on it numerous different times.

I was a wildland firefighter in my previous job, so I know what its all about... when I worked in the states our training consisted of a guy showing us how to use the fire shelter, and then telling us there was a good chance we could die. oh ya and we watched some videos haha

 

[OCR]

really confusing:

not 100% sure what you mean, but I find the incident command system and all the training levels in the states really confusing.

That's what I mean... and that's an under statement...

I was a wildland firefighter in my previous job, so I know what its all about... when I worked in the states our training consisted of a guy showing us how to use the fire shelter, and then telling us there was a good chance we could die.

That's why fire shelters are called "Shake and Bake"...and that's not funny...

I'll see if I can find an easier way to show what training a cat skinner, (HFEO)Heavy Fire Equipment Operator...needs. It's actually not too awful much.

Take care,


OCR

 

[Deas Plant]

One for OCR

Hi, OCR.
I sent an e-mail to the Wildfire Lessons Learned Centre a couple of days ago asking if there was to be any follow-up on the report into D4641's mishap and giving them the link to this thread. I received a very nice reply today with this link in it:

http://wildfirelessons.net/documents/Scratchline_Issue13.pdf

I thought you might be interested if you haven't already seen it. Maybe others will appreciate it too.

The nice lady also thanked me for the link to this thread.

Thank you for your insights into wildland fires in your neck of the woods. Somewhat different from my own experiences but almost in another world too. The BIG similarities are that you are ALWAYS in danger on a fireground, that you can NEVER be TOO careful and that no two fires are ever the same.

Did somebody mumble something about the thrill of a lifetime???????????????