2008 New holland w170B (same as Case 721 basically) transmission issue.

[Hardlyworking]

Got a 2008 New holland I bought earlier this spring, used it all summer around my bush property and to do a few jobs and it worked fantastic. I do commercial snow plowing and that's mainly why I bought this unit. I have used it for about 5-7 snow events with no issue, but the last 2 I have had issues with the trans when first getting going. For the first few blocks if I get into the throttle decently, or try ti get into the higher end of any gear it kicks me out of gear, throws it in neutral and throws a K code (K1 K2 K3 etc depending what gear it's in) "Clutch slip too high". Doesn't matter if it's in auto, or I put it in manual and lock it in a specific gear. Usually after a few blocks of gentle driving it's good to go and drives and shifts perfect. At first when it does do that it does sometimes seem slow to shift into gear, and sometimes doesn't have as strong of a "lurch". Also not sure if it is related, but this seems to have started after a car wash. I like to take my equipment to the wash on warm days to get the salt off, I washed the loader drove it home fine, it sat a few days then I went to use it for snow and now it's doing this, unsure if it's a coincidence or not. I'm not sure when it was serviced last, but the filter looks almost new and the fluid in the sight glass looks brand new, and it was a municipal loader, so I know they usually have regular service intervals. I was going to change fluids in the spring though. Fluid is roughly half way up the sight glass when running in park. I'm going to buy a scan tool to hook up to my laptop, so hopefully I can read the trans solenoids etc, but what should I be looking for?

Also, since it's gotten Colder out (like back in november, before it saw road salt etc) it throws a "low Coolant" code every single time I turn it on when it's cold, and sometimes throws a "Display screen timeout" code or something along those lines. Eventually after warming up they both go away, except the low Coolant sometimes comes back for a bit then leaves. Coolant is never low in the bottle.

 

[cuttin edge]

Our 230 new Holland had to warm up pretty good in the cold. It had a screw on transmission filter, and it would burst the filter if you tried yo move it cold

 

[Simon C]

Coolant bottles are good to check, but if it has an actual rad cap better check to see if down.
Buy all new filters, and cut open the old ones to see what is in the pleats of paper. If anything major inside then repairs coming. Post pictures of inside of filters.
Wrong oil could be causing some problems when cold. Just because was owned by municipality means nothing to me as it may of gotten no maintenance,or an abusive driver, I was not there and you were not their either I would gather.
Check all the relay plugs for corrosion and battery connections and all ground straps or cables.
Have you checked alternator output when running. We the readers of this post are not there so can only ask questions to figure out possiblities.
Simon C

 

[Hardlyworking]

Our 230 new Holland had to warm up pretty good in the cold. It had a screw on transmission filter, and it would burst the filter if you tried yo move it cold

Unless it's something sudden that I'm just moving it out of the driveway for, I always let it warm up in the cold, before I go plowing it always gets 15+ minutes of idling, usually on fast idle to let it warm up.

 

[Hardlyworking]

Coolant bottles are good to check, but if it has an actual rad cap better check to see if down.
Buy all new filters, and cut open the old ones to see what is in the pleats of paper. If anything major inside then repairs coming. Post pictures of inside of filters.
Wrong oil could be causing some problems when cold. Just because was owned by municipality means nothing to me as it may of gotten no maintenance,or an abusive driver, I was not there and you were not their either I would gather.
Check all the relay plugs for corrosion and battery connections and all ground straps or cables.
Have you checked alternator output when running. We the readers of this post are not there so can only ask questions to figure out possiblities.
Simon C

I haven't checked the rad in a while, but I have before (since the Coolant light started flashing) and it was good. I keep meaning to check the rad, but also since the bottle never goes down I assumed it was good and never pulled over to check when I remembered while driving. You are right that it means nothing and could have been badly maintained. I had planned to change all the fluids and filters before winter, but I had a couple of sudden things come up and It slipped my mind. I thought maybe wrong oil, but it wasn't doing it as soon as it got cold, rather has developed after using it in the cold quite a few times. Still could be an issue, I'll see about getting a filter after the holidays and go from there. Just wondering what I should check with the scan tool to see what PSI pressures it should be reading and when, what valves I should be watching to make sure they do the right things at certain times etc. Alternator output when running, on the display screen is good, it's always been around 29 volts, doesn't matter what I'm doing, what accessories are running, temperature etc, it's always been around 29. I have checked some grounds and connections, but not all. I don't have a shop to work in, so if there was a common known spot to check I was hoping to know that and start there rather than crawle around the entire machine in -25 for a couple of hours.

 

[Simon C]

There is usually a ground connection from Cab to Chassis (Frame), then there is going to be a ground from frame to battery neagative, sometimes from engine or starter to frame or battery negative.
Display to cab could have a ground, ECU to cab could have a tiny ground strap.
Not fun, but without checking them all it is just a guess.
Best check alternator output with a quality multimeter as 29 volts is about tops for charging. With it revved and lights and fan on how high is it exactly?
If you have a coolant leak in the system somewhere, the rad will suck back air instead of from the overflow container. Easier to suck air through a straw than it is to suck liquid. Pretty simple.
Need to change Transmission filter immediatley and find out where if it does have a suction screen to clean out. If something is wrong better catch before grenading happens or transmission failure.
Doesn't mean you have much wrong, just need to rule out.
I don't have any info on that unit, so have to ask dealer for pressure info.
Get quality oil into it and get rads clean if dirty. Was it getting hot by any chance.
How is the heat in the cab.
Some things to start with. Too many people put off maintenance and pay dearly. Maintenance should be your friend not an inconvenience. Broke down is inconvenience and headaches.
Simon C

 

[Bigbert]

Hardlyworking,

the tranny is a ZF 4WG160 or 190? Too long slip times usually means low clutch pressures. So check pressures to clutches and/or main pressure at control valve.
Confirm type of transmission and get me your mail address in a PN or here. I'll get you a manual if available.

 

[Hardlyworking]

There is usually a ground connection from Cab to Chassis (Frame), then there is going to be a ground from frame to battery neagative, sometimes from engine or starter to frame or battery negative.
Display to cab could have a ground, ECU to cab could have a tiny ground strap.
Not fun, but without checking them all it is just a guess.
Best check alternator output with a quality multimeter as 29 volts is about tops for charging. With it revved and lights and fan on how high is it exactly?
If you have a coolant leak in the system somewhere, the rad will suck back air instead of from the overflow container. Easier to suck air through a straw than it is to suck liquid. Pretty simple.
Need to change Transmission filter immediatley and find out where if it does have a suction screen to clean out. If something is wrong better catch before grenading happens or transmission failure.
Doesn't mean you have much wrong, just need to rule out.
I don't have any info on that unit, so have to ask dealer for pressure info.
Get quality oil into it and get rads clean if dirty. Was it getting hot by any chance.
How is the heat in the cab.
Some things to start with. Too many people put off maintenance and pay dearly. Maintenance should be your friend not an inconvenience. Broke down is inconvenience and headaches.
Simon C

I have found lots of ground straps, I'll only start going through them all and cleaning them. Most that I have seen though do look decently clean. I checked the Coolant in the rad yesterday since I was up there to open panels anyway because I blew a hydraulic hose so I've been slowly replacing that over the last 2 days. It's slightly, and I mean very slightly low in the rad, but could be enough to trigger the sensor. I haven't had to top it up, except once since I bought the machine, around 200-250hrs ago. And that top up was nothing to even really read home about. So wether its leaking, or using it IF it is, it's a very very small amount and very slowly.

The engine temp sits right around 3/4 on the Guage, I believe 70-80 Celsius on the digital display, doesn't change much summer or winter, idling or working or driving down the road. Winter is maybe about 10 degrees cooler than summer. Heat, well it is slow to get heat into the cab... But I mean it is a loader with flex tubes that the heat has to run through outside the cab in the cold... Like even if I have been running the loader for hours up to temp, and I turn the heater on in the summer it takes a while to feel hot air from the vents, but once you do it heats fine, I usually only have to run the heater around 1/2- 3/4 while plowing once I'm up to temp to be comfortable in just a sweater. Trans temp, in the winter sits very low, like if I'm just idling it will be 10-20 if that, if I'm plowing, 30-40 Celsius. Driving down the road I couldn't quite get it to the 60 needed to do the "clutch calibration" last time I was out. Summer it does run a bit warmer, road travel it's usually around half on the Guage. don't remember the digital read out.

Once I finish installing the hydraulic hose I'll check voltage with a multimeter. The fan is hydraulic, not electric. It has a "central" cooling system, all my rads are located just behind the cab, between cab and motor, mounted to the rear of the cab and on each side and the top. The giant fan sits directly behind them all and sucks through... And it moves LOTS of air. Like I said the voltage doesn't seem to drop or change, I mean on the digital read-out it's moving around between like 29.7-29.4 volts etc slowly, which is normal for alternators. Revved up or idling, nothing on except the machine running or everything on, fwd lights back up lights headlights flashers beacon radio etc, everything possible on, the voltage doesn't change. It will fluctuate for a split second when you turn something on like it should, then almost instantly jump back to 29 volts.

I agree maintenance is huge, I'll get some more Oil on Monday, and a filter if I can and see about doing a change, and see if I can find the suction screen.

 

[Simon C]

Hardlyworking,

the tranny is a ZF 4WG160 or 190? Too long slip times usually means low clutch pressures. So check pressures to clutches and/or main pressure at control valve.
Confirm type of transmission and get me your mail address in a PN or here. I'll get you a manual if available.

Agreed, need to check the pressure for somewhere to start. Need to change all filters and check any suction screens good second place to start. Then a person knows what has been done.
Where are you in Canada, cause Vancouver is way different than Whitehorse for winter temperatures.
Just saying, my skid steer has all the vents plugged in winter and only makes it to 195F after an hour with hydraulic oil at 140-160 F.
Your alternator is a hair high at 29.7 volts, but is not the big problem in my opinion, just a little bit harder on bulbs.
Simon C

 

[Simon C]

Just found Caterpillars specs., for maximum voltage on alternator, 28.9 Volts +/- 0.15 Volts.
Basically anything over 29 volts for extended period of time not a short couple seconds while new load has been applied.
Simon C

 

[Kyle Helmke]

if they are the same as the case machines there should be a way to do an AEB adjustment on the transmission solenoids, which would adjust each clutch pressure. on the newer case machines it's done through the cluster or display, the older machines you had to have a switch box that connected to the trans controller and started the adjustment. looking at pictures of a170b I would say you have to do it through the cluster. there should be two buttons under your steering wheel, one has a diamond and a enter arrow, the other has up and down arrows. if you hold the enter arrow it should take you to a menu screen where you'll find a calibrations tab enter into that and you'll see an AEB calibration. the transmission will have to be hot first like 166 degrees.

 

[Hardlyworking]

Hardlyworking,

the tranny is a ZF 4WG160 or 190? Too long slip times usually means low clutch pressures. So check pressures to clutches and/or main pressure at control valve.
Confirm type of transmission and get me your mail address in a PN or here. I'll get you a manual if available.

Sorry I never replied, It's been hectic lately, I'm not sure, I tried to find an ID tag on the trans, but couldn't find anything. I know it's a ZF 4 speed powershift, but not sure which model.

 

[Hardlyworking]

Just found Caterpillars specs., for maximum voltage on alternator, 28.9 Volts +/- 0.15 Volts.
Basically anything over 29 volts for extended period of time not a short couple seconds while new load has been applied.
Simon C

I changed the filter, and topped up the fluid with the proper fluid, I went to change the fluid but the drain plug was stuck and rounded off, so I'll have to weld a nut to it to try and get it out, but seeing as it was the night before a snow storm I didn't want to risk breaking something when I needed the loader. So far though it has been working fine again, so I'm not sure if like I said the car wash got moisture where it shouldn't have been, and because we had a warm spell it dried out, or if the filter was plugged (have yet to cut it open) or if the fluid is just flowing better because it's been warmer out, averaging -10 not -25- -30. The fluid is the same color and feels the same viscosity as the proper fluid I bought, and comes out clean and appears a perfect dark ish honey color in the sight glass (same color as the new fluid). I still do plan to change the fluid as soon as I can. I live in Ontario Canada. Yes my voltage is always 29+, I flip through all my guages keeping an eye on things as I use anything, it's a habit I picked up before I could even drive.

 

[Hardlyworking]

if they are the same as the case machines there should be a way to do an AEB adjustment on the transmission solenoids, which would adjust each clutch pressure. on the newer case machines it's done through the cluster or display, the older machines you had to have a switch box that connected to the trans controller and started the adjustment. looking at pictures of a170b I would say you have to do it through the cluster. there should be two buttons under your steering wheel, one has a diamond and a enter arrow, the other has up and down arrows. if you hold the enter arrow it should take you to a menu screen where you'll find a calibrations tab enter into that and you'll see an AEB calibration. the transmission will have to be hot first like 166 degrees.

Yes I can do a "Clutch Calibration" Through my display. But the fluid needs to be 50 or 60C (I forget which one) and I can't get it warm enough during the winter so far, even when it's above 0c and I'm road driving, or plowing or stacking. I have once or twice got it above needed temp by 1 degree, but I forgot to engage park brake before trying and in the 2 minutes it took me to get it sorted out I lost too much temp.

 

[Simon C]

I changed the filter, and topped up the fluid with the proper fluid, I went to change the fluid but the drain plug was stuck and rounded off, so I'll have to weld a nut to it to try and get it out, but seeing as it was the night before a snow storm I didn't want to risk breaking something when I needed the loader. So far though it has been working fine again, so I'm not sure if like I said the car wash got moisture where it shouldn't have been, and because we had a warm spell it dried out, or if the filter was plugged (have yet to cut it open) or if the fluid is just flowing better because it's been warmer out, averaging -10 not -25- -30. The fluid is the same color and feels the same viscosity as the proper fluid I bought, and comes out clean and appears a perfect dark ish honey color in the sight glass (same color as the new fluid). I still do plan to change the fluid as soon as I can. I live in Ontario Canada. Yes my voltage is always 29+, I flip through all my guages keeping an eye on things as I use anything, it's a habit I picked up before I could even drive.

A rainy day has shut down many a machine from water in a connection. On a dry day all is good for some machines. Between 30 weight oil and 10 weight oil there is a huge difference in oil flow and resistance to flow. After getting the plug out and oil chaqnged along with all filters you will be better able to start proper diagnostics.
To help warm up engine, you can plastic off the whole thing and it will warm up a whole lot easier.
A simple test to know if your alternator is charging too high because of a hidden cable or connection problem is to put a jumper between the Alternator positive and Battery 24 Volt positive. If the voltage at the battery drops at all it tells you that the voltage sensing part of alternator senses fairly low voltage and subsequently tell alternator to charge more.
Simon C

 

[Kyle Helmke]

Yes I can do a "Clutch Calibration" Through my display. But the fluid needs to be 50 or 60C (I forget which one) and I can't get it warm enough during the winter so far, even when it's above 0c and I'm road driving, or plowing or stacking. I have once or twice got it above needed temp by 1 degree, but I forgot to engage park brake before trying and in the 2 minutes it took me to get it sorted out I lost too much temp.

you have to hold the brake and stall the torque converter in 3rd or 4th gear to get it up to temp and go a little above so it doesn't drop before you start the calibration

 

[Simon C]

you have to hold the brake and stall the torque converter in 3rd or 4th gear to get it up to temp and go a little above so it doesn't drop before you start the calibration

That is exactly what I do on dozers in high gear with brakes on. Get torque almost to red line and shift to neutral and send heat out of torque into radiator up front which solwly heats the engine coolant to as high as you would like. It of coarse gets the transmission oil good and hot for any testing needed.
Simon C