299D2XHP Not Cranking

[jashford1]

Hello all, I apologize up front for the lengthy post, wanting to provide everything I can. I’ve read through many threads on this subject and am now somewhat confused. I have a 2015 299D2XHP S/N: DX200203 that will not crank. I am an individual cleaning up my place, not a business. Everything was working great, I was mulching with a J-D MH60D head when I developed a hydraulic leak on a Flat Face coupler. I unhooked the mulching head and pulled the machine in my shop to repair or replace the coupler. I got that fixed and noticed the wires going to the bucket angle sensor were in bad shape. I cleaned that up, fixed the wires, etc. the attachment locks were sticking so I cleaned them up, oiled everything good. During all of that I had it on & off, started multiple times. I went out yesterday to crank it up to back it out, nothing. The back power disconnect switch works, when off no power anywhere. With the power disconnect on, the in cab key in the first position I hear the fuel pump or glow plug (whatever it is) buzzing. Checked the safety switch and it appears to be operating (raise and lower the left arm rest the seatbelt light off & on, also with the armrest down if I raise out of the seat the light comes on). Unfortunately my shop ceiling is not high enough to raise the cab to check the external fuses, I check all of the in cab fuses, all are good. I have no active codes, I am attaching my notes I made before forgetting and the log, along with a shot of the display. My gut tells me it is something simple since it was starting and stopping without me moving it multiple times since pulling it in. Thanks all.

 

[Simon C]

Have you touched the 2 test leads of a MULTIMETER set on DC volts to your battery to see what static voltage you have.
Does the starter solenoid clunck if you have your hand on it when someone else tries to start it? Do you hear any large relays click when the key is turned on by someone else.
Have to start the trouble shooting somewhere.
Simon C

 

[jashford1]

Yes sir, I have 12.89 vdc across the battery. Unfortunately I do not have anyone to assist so I have a hard time on feel. I do not here what sounds like any relays or selenoids kicking in when I try to start it.

I hear you on a starting point. Everyone does things a little different and it is sometimes difficult to see the trees for the forest (easy to overlook and miss something).

Jerry

 

[Simon C]

Need to know if there is power to the S-Terminal of you starter solenoid when the machine is put in start mode. If not, then need to know if safety system is stopping your start attempt or if something electrical has failed. You may have to get a helper unless if you have a recording meter.
Simon C

 

[jashford1]

I have a really stupid question, how in the heck do you get to the starter? I removed the battery so I could see better and still can’t see how to get to it. I did find the battery terminals were oily and looser than I would like. I am cleaning all of that mess up now, will try again after that. Assuming the starter is on forward of the battery, here is what that looks like. Thanks for your patience.

 

[jashford1]

OK, I did a lot of cleaning on the engine and in the engine compartment last night. Located the starter after applying my contortionist skills. I have someone coming over to assist today to get the voltage on the solenoid. From the build up in the bottom of the engine compartment I would say it has never been cleaned out before. I just wanted to let you know I’m not giving up and have not fixed it yet. I was looking for a larger starter which kind of through me off.

 

[jashford1]

OK, I fixed me a test wire that I soldered into and insulated to the wire going to the starter solenoid. The measured voltage is 11 vdc when the key is in the “crank” position. The static battery voltage is 12.39 vdc

 

[Joe Zhao]

.... The measured voltage is 11 vdc when the key is in the “crank” position. The static battery voltage is 12.39 vdc

The battery seems weak. I would suggest do following:

1) use a jump starter (jump starter such as this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BSCTDGY2/ connect it to the battery and try again to see if it cranks. If yes, replace the battery. If no, or if you don't have a jump starter, go next step

2) Use an external battery charger (such as this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082G1N2T7
fully charge the battery then crank again.

3) disconnect the battery postive terminal, then negative, check and clean the two wire terminals, use the external charger to charge the battery, until it reach and float at 14V, then test again.

 

[jashford1]

Joe, the voltage seemed a little low to me also. I disconnected the positive and negative battery cables and cleaned them very good with wire brush, have both the terminals & the clamps nice and shiny. I filed down the openings a bit where the bolt goes through (you know how the lead cable clamps get pulled out of shape) to get a better fit when tightened. I connected my battery charger on the 12 vdc / 225 Amp Start setting, I then receive the following codes “163-3 Engine Battery Potential / Power Input #1 Voltage Above Normal”, “358-6 Machine Implement Pilot Pressure Supply Solenoid Current Above Normal”, “681-6 Machine Parking Brake Solenoid Current Above Normal”. Zero (0.0) vdc if I turn the key to “crank”.

 

[Joe Zhao]

Did you measure the actual voltage acrosst the battery when you turn the crank key and saw 'Voltage Above Normal'?
Its possible that your charger try to charge the battery with a constant current, but the battery internal resistance is high, so the charger had to automatically 'raise' the charging voltage in order to maintain a constant charging current. If this is the case, this would be another indication the battery is too weak.

At this moment, I would recommend you replace the battery and try again. (or at least disconnect the battery from the machine, charge it outside the machine until it reach say 13.5-14v, then put the battery back in and try again.

 

[jashford1]

I will go do that right now.

First I will reconnect my charger and physically measure voltage across the battery while in “crank” mode.

Second I will remove the battery, place on charger overnight on 12 vdc, 10 amps.

Check battery voltage tomorrow and go from there as try again or get a new battery.

 

[jashford1]

Voltage test “static” (without charger)
Battery 12.9 vdc
Solenoid 0.0 vdc

Voltage test “crank mode” (without charger)
Battery 12.9 vdc
Solenoid 11.48 vdc

Voltage test “static” (with charger @ 225 amp Start)
Battery 17.7 vdc
Solenoid 0.0 vdc

Voltage test “crank mode” (with charger @ 225 Amp Start)
Battery 17.7 vdc
Solenoid 00.08 vdc

Voltage test “static” w/battery disconnected (with charger @ 10 amp for the night)
Battery 14.46 vdc

Will check battery static voltage in the morning. Determine next direction dependent on testing results.

 

[Joe Zhao]

First, your battery charger output voltage a little too high (17.7v)
Secondly, looks like your solenoid is not getting the needed voltage in the 'crank mode' (as you indicate only 0.08v). Looks like there is some connection problem.
Assuming no broken wire (sometimes rats get into a machine and chew wire), you should check fuse and the starter relay. If fuse and relay are all good. Then check if you have a bad starter.

To check if the the starter is good or bad, find a jumper cable (needs to be a thick one, as lots of amperage at next step testing), with one end connect to the battery positive, hold the other end then touch the starter terminal (positive) for half or one second - this creates a tempory circuit which by pass the normal cranking circuitry to the starter. If you see the the starter is cranking when you touch its terminal, you have a good starter. Now, check relay, fuse and wiring again. You can find the root cause.

 

[Joe Zhao]

Voltage test “crank mode” (without charger)
Battery 12.9 vdc
Solenoid 11.48 vdc

Voltage test “crank mode” (with charger @ 225 Amp Start)
Battery 17.7 vdc
Solenoid 00.08 vdc

At 'cranking mode' without the charger, the Solenoid 11.48v is okay.

with the charger, battery 17.7v - this is too high voltgage and your Solenoid is not receiving the needed voltgage to start. Battery terminal voltage at 13-14v is good , but but should not exceed over 14.5v, with or without charger.

As to why your Solenoid voltage stays at ~0 (with charger on) at 'cranking mode', its possible the relay that feeds to the starter not clicking on, not sure it its due to 299D2 has a built-in electrical system protections to prevent damage because voltage above normal.

I now suspect your relay and fuse are okay, the culprit is your starter, because at 'cranking mode' the voltage on the starter measured 11.48v, and it doesn't turn.

 

[jashford1]

Thanks, I’ll start this troubleshooting today. My assumption was with the charger connected and putting out 17.7 v the machine went into a self protection mode and would not complete the circuit to the starter solenoid. This was kind of reinforced when I see a battery voltage of ~13 and solenoid voltage of ~11.5 in crank.

I will update the thread in a bit. The battery has been on charge all night so it should be fully charged.

Again, thanks for the patience. I have been hoping anything but the starter.

 

[jashford1]

This mornings tests and results after battery charging all night (without charger connected). I started setting up my meters before I switched on the main key switch and noticed I had power on the solenoid, is that normal? Once I switched the main key switch on the solenoid voltage went away.

Voltage test “static” with main power switch “off”
Battery 13.63 vdc
Solenoid 9.08 vdc

Voltage test “static” with main power switch “on”
Battery 13.60 vdc
Solenoid 00.02 vdc

Voltage test “crank mode”
Battery 13.60 vdc
Solenoid 07.44 vdc

Voltage test “static” with main power switch “on” after start attempt
Battery 12.83 vdc
Solenoid 00.01 vdc

Voltage test “static” with main power switch “off” after start attempt
Battery 12.84 vdc
Solenoid 06.67 vdc

 

[Nige]

Do you have an electrical schematic.?
If not you probably need one.

 

[jashford1]

No sir I do not. I keep thinking I am going to purchase a full manual but you know how it is until the time comes you need it.

 

[Joe Zhao]

You don't need a manual for this, its simple wiring which applies to all CAT 299D2.

I asked you to test the starter using a jumper cable (thick car jumper cable that can handles say 100-200 amp), did you test it?

The CAT part number of this starter is: 377-6967.
You probably didn't, or you probably didn't do it correctly, see the illustation I have attached.

If you do need manuals, pm me, I have them.

You really should measure the voltage at terminal B of the solenoid, but measure at "A" is okay - at least you know power is getting to the solenoid. The question is wheather the starting motor is getting the 12V or not? Chances are that it does as your earlier post showing the voltage drops to ~6-7v (or half of the battery 12v) when key is turned to crank, indicating there might be large current draw, but starter not turning, perhaps seized.


Thats the reason I suggested you to use a jumper cable, one side connected to battery positive, and another side touch (only momentary) at termainal B of the solenoid. If the starter is good, you should see a spark when you touch, and the starting motor turning (crank)

 

[Nige]

No sir I do not.

Check your messages. There is an electrical schemaitc in oyur inbox.